08-06-2002 08:26									#1
	Trade?? Full PM-box? Change here!

Ok I've been trying to figure out if there is a benefit to trading between cities that offer something that the caravan's originating city demands. Also if it does what is the benefit?

	08-06-2002 10:53									#2
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Trade is a vast topic in the game and there are still some aspects of the subject that are not fully understood.

The trade arrow represents the wealth of you empire…science/gold/luxuries…and the tax rate sliders allow you to apportion the riches of the economy in any direction you choose, subject to the limitations of your government.

The delivery of a demanded commodity from city A to B has the following advantages:
1) A one off gold/science bonus…if Hides from Antium to Rome pays 50g you will receive an equivalent science bonus of 50 beakers towards your next research target.
2) You will receive an ongoing trade increase in both cities. The arrows towards the bottom of the city screens represent this bonus. In the early stages of the game these will be typically modest numbers…1 to 3. However, as the cities grow the numbers increase. Incidentally, that is one reason in the Mad Succession Game, I was so keen to grow the capital.

Below is a discussion on trade between samson/Dave V/Adam Smith that took place about a year ago. This gives an insight into the finer points of the subject.

__________________________________________________
__________________________

Trade route basics.

The formula for the number of arrows a trade route provides is:

TradeFromRoute = ( (SourceTrade + DestinationTrade + 4 ) / 8 ) x Modifiers

where SourceTrade and DestinationTrade are the two cities' worker-generated arrows (WGA) minus corruption. Existing trade routes in neither city affect the amount of trade generated by the new route. Trade route modifiers are:

Road: +50%

Railroad: +50% cummulative with Road for 100% total.

Airport: +50% Both cities must have an airport. If either a road or railroad bonus exists, airports have no effect.

Superhighways: +50% in the city with the SH improvement only. Note that the SH also increases the worker-generated arrows, so its influence on trade routes is twofold.

Same Civ: -50% If both cities belong to the same civ, the trade route is halved. Thus, a railroad bonus between two cities of the same civ is equivalent to a non-bonus route between cities of different civs.

Distance between cities has NO effect on trade route calculations. Being on different continents has NO effect. Commodity type and Demand status have NO effect. Technological discoveries have NO direct effect on trade route calculations. All of these things affect delivery bonuses only.

Trade routes are dynamic. If you shift workers, substantially reducing or increasing the number of arrows they generate, the trade routes change. It takes 8 worker-generated arrows to increase a trade route by 1 arrow. If the railroad bonus is in effect, 8 WGAs will increase each route by 2 arrows. If you have Superhighways in addition to the railroad bonus, increasing WGAs by 8 will bump the trade routes by 2 or 3 arrows on alternating increases in WGA arrows. Road and railroad bonuses can be lost temporarily if the road/rail connection between cities is interdicted by a non-allied foreign unit. When the foreign unit is removed, the bonus is restored.

As for your original question, Rufus, yes, there is a way to replace an existing low-paying route. Generally speaking, higher paying routes replace lower paying ones with the road and rail bonuses being factored in. However, it appears that the same-civ penalty is not considered when a replacement route is compared to an existing one. This is unfortunate as it means that high paying foreign routes can be displaced by mediocre domestic ones. The foreign city must be able to beat out the domestic one in the amount of the arrows it contributes to the route calculation.

The trick to doing this is to remove all workers from trade producing squares in the domestic city whose route in your source city you want to replace just prior to delivering the new freight to the foreign city. This will reduce the value of the existing trade route to its minimum. If the domestic city is benefiting from a road/rail bonus, you may even want to cut that connection for a turn by pillaging your own rail.

Also remember that multiple routes into the same city require different commodities. If you send Copper to a foreign city which already has a "(Copper)" route established with your source city, it won't create a new route.

Hope this helps,

samson

-------------------------------------

Samson - a very well written and comprehensive explanation. One minor quibble - when running lots of caravans into my capital, I've had (for example) 6-arrow routes replaced by 4-arrow routes. So I think the road/rail bonus may not be factored in (or maybe it is checked in the originating rather than the destination city).

DaveV,

-----------------------------------

Thanks.

What you are describing is the problem - the loss of higher paying routes to lower paying ones. This is often caused by inbound freight. The remedy requires an outbound freight. Road/rail bonuses do seem to be checked correctly on outbound freight. I've had freights to foreign cities not replace domestic routes w/o a road bonus, but when the road bonus is in effect (all other factors the same) the foreign route does replace it.

However, on inbound freights it may be that none of the bonuses are checked as to how they affect the destination city. In any event, the solution is the same: reduce the trade arrows of the source city (temporarily) to prevent it from replacing an existing route. Unfortunately this will also reduce the delivery bonus. But in the case of small source cities delivering freights to an SSC the loss shouldn't be too much.
--------------------

Below by Adam Smith:

Bonuses for Fulfilling Demand, By Commody
Here are the bonuses for fulfilling demand at a destination city. The bonuses are expressed as a multiple of the bonus for fulfilling a demand for hides. For example, if a route from A to B demanding hides resulted in a bonus of 100, a route from A to B at the same time demanding beads would result in a bonus of 200.

I determined the multiples by creating a caravan in the Cheat menu (v 2.42), completing a route to a given city, reloading, and then completing another route to the same city using a different commodity. These multiples apply to the one-time bonus for completing a route, not to the continuing income from trade. While the values of the commodities are generally in the order listed in the Supply and Demand window, there are several exceptions such as coal and cloth.

1x: Hides, Salt

2x: Beads, Copper, Dye, Wool

2.5x: Cloth, Coal, Silver, Wine

3x: Gems, Gold, Silk, Spice

3.5x: Oil

4x: Uranium

__________________________________________________
________

Complied by SG(2) with thanks to samson, Dave V and Adam Smith

	08-06-2002 14:47									#3
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

No, I think she's seen the Trade issue discussed recently. I think she means the other way around. If ScouseHolme demands Coal, Copper, Spice and sends out a Wool caravan, Aleppo demands Wool and supplies Copper. Does the supply of Copper have any effect?

When a foreign Caravan/Freight arrives in one of your cities it "steals" one of your supplied goods, if you have an unused one. OOOooo, I hate that. Anyway, you see the route as though you established it using that supply but you get nothing for it.

Maybe it takes originating city demand into account if there is a choice. I haven't figured out how it chooses, since I always have routes by the time any foreigner arrives. Many times I can't see the originating city to know what is demanded.

The other way around, we have no idea what the foreign city supplies. Cheating could tell, but I don't think it is factored into the bonus. It appears to be a straightforward multiple based on supplied commodity.

	08-06-2002 16:19									#4
	Put an end to popups!

I have long been convinced (without I must admit a shred of solid evidence) that the existance of a potential 'return route' enhances the one off bonus - much of my trading is hamlet to SSC internal stuff and the odd 'rogue' bonus has caused me to think this way...

SG[1]

	08-06-2002 19:56									#5
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Could be that samson, Dave, Adam, Xin, et al. just never checked. Someone started a thread about a more careful analysis of the factors, concluding that

Base bonus = ((distancex+10)x(source trade+destination trade))/24 is inaccurate, and

Base bonus = (2x(distancex+10)x(source trade+destination trade)+1)/48 is more accurate.

Maybe there are return bonuses, too; if so they must be rather small in comparison or the above researchers would have discovered them.

	09-06-2002 00:24									#6
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Hmmm ok Ive been checking Samson, Dave V, and Adam's Smiths
theory. The thing is part of this theory is disputed in the manual I got with MPG edition (although the disk was stolen). I am assuming that MPG is similar to the 2.42 I own now.

Quoting from the manual page 91.
If you capture a rival city with whom you were previously trading, the trade route remains active. However the amount of trade it generates is reduced, because items which were once exotic imports have become domestic commodities.

So the theory that the distance and rival nation trade route only effect the bonus I think maybe a mistake????

Also Straybow after espionage is discovered I try to keep a militia of spys to investigate foriegn cities. This gives you exactly what they produce just as it would if they were your own city screens.

However I think in 2.42 Im having more problems because the trade routes seem to randomly stop. Maybe they run out of a commodity and switch to another commodity thereby stoping the original commodities route?

Ok now I've given myself a headache.

	09-06-2002 03:24									#7
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Told you some aspects of trade are not understood.

I would also assume that the trading patterns are similar between 2.42 and MPG.

As soon as you capture an enemy city the trade routes from your cities do decrease as they are counted as internal trading.

City commodities on the supply and demand side change with their growth...sometimes! However, this does not explain repeated supply/demand for a product between any two cities. A couple of years ago I had a huge capital that kept producing silk...the very same item was demanded by a fat AI city on another continent. This went on for centuries and was worth rush buying the silk freight each turn for the vast profit in gold/science.

-------------------------

SG(2)

	09-06-2002 21:05									#8
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As a rule of thumb, when a conflict exists between the manual and considered statements on these boards - trust Apolyton -- the manual has proved to be totally incorrect so often - in fairness so have individual Aplytoners, but rarely a sizeable consensus

SG[1]

	09-06-2002 23:52									#9
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I know manuals aren't always correct. But there has to be something to this a little because I sent a caravan into a city right before I took it from AI the trade rate went from 3g to 1g per turn after It was my city.

	10-06-2002 01:26									#10
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Mercatia
When you send a caravan to another city you get a one-time bonus in gold + the same amount in beakers (I won't discuss that now).
You also get a trade route (trade arrows written in your city screen). Mind you! If the destination city is also yours, you get 2 trade routes, 1 in the origin city + 1 in the destination city, but the value of each of those 2 trade routes is 1/2 of the value of 1 equivalent 'foreign' trade route (so the overall value of the trade routes you get is the same, but foreign trade makes you 'give' a trade route to the foreign city you are trading with.
To make it short, long distance foreign trade of high value demanded commodities is much better if you consider the one-time bonus, but it is no better if you consider the continuing trade route (this is the cornerstone of my 'twin cities' strategy).

Straybow
IIRC 'someone' is William Keenan who discussed that topic a lot with debeest

	10-06-2002 13:26									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits Trade route basics. Trade route modifiers are: Road: +50% Railroad: +50% cummulative with Road for 100% total.

These bonuses are not correct
correct its only 33 1/3%( road) and 66 2/3 % (RR).
Roads(RR) must be at the optimal path.

the bonuses are lost, if the distance between the trading cities exceeds 22 or 23 tiles.

	10-06-2002 18:49									#12
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Thoddy - I am only quoting what I believe is the established wisdom in this area. What is the source of your figures?

-----------------------

SG(2)

	10-06-2002 20:33									#13
	Proof in the pudding Inflate your Upload Space

Thoddy, look at the Mad 2.42 game in the Civ2 General forum. ScouseHolme has Colossus etc and 73 WGA. That alone is worth 9, or 10 if the originating city has 7 WGA. At the start of my go as leader only one city (Erie or Unitysomething) had road & rail connection, its routes to SH were worth +10 or +11. No other city had any valid trade connection.

The city right beside (I renamed it Sarzanagrad) got only +5 (11, -50% same civ penalty, rounded down). That becomes the base value of the route. When the proper road connection was established Sarz got +8 (+50% over the unrounded same civ base). With the rail completed each route got +11 (+100% of unrounded for rd & rl).

Road connection +33% doesn't work with these numbers, that would only get at best +7.

	10-06-2002 20:42									#14
	Re: Proof in the pudding Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Straybow The city right beside (I renamed it Sarzanagrad)

... and Politburo will send you to chop some woods in the northern parts of the country for this... we won't forget!

	11-06-2002 10:54									#15
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...25&pagenumber=3

See also the link to the german civ2 Forum.

See my post from 23.11.2001.
I will verify this, but this will last 1 week or so, because of time.

	11-06-2002 13:05									#16
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Thoddy - you appear to be in a minority here ... the evidence provided by StrayBow seems somewhat compelling - could it be that your results were garnered post Flight where the reduction might now make sense?
Can you post a save in which it is easy to see your figures verified?

SG[1]

	12-06-2002 12:31									#17
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I couldnt look at the madsave.

I try to install civ2 2.42 a second time but it doesnt work. :mad
So I m only able to test with FW. I will use my own sav wich is postet in the Slow Thinker corruption/waste thread from last month.

	12-06-2002 16:26									#18
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FW should be able to load and play a 2.42 save game, but not a MGE one. Thanks very much for revisiting this

SG[1]

	12-06-2002 18:30									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits FW should be able to load and play a 2.42 save game, but not a MGE one. Thanks very much for revisiting this SG[1]

Same odd thing, my FW was not able to open the posted save.

Until yesterday I had 4 civ2 installations on my computer.
2.42
FW
MGE
ToT.
And they all were ok.

Then the sav come and crush my 2.42.

	12-06-2002 19:28									#20
	Politburo, schmolitburo Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

"…I renamed it Sarzanagrad"

quote: Originally posted by Messer Niccolò ... and Politburo will send you to chop some woods in the northern parts of the country for this... we won't forget!

Hey, don't b!tch at me. STYOM changed it to "AllWisdom" or some such, I changed it back (sort of) since you are so fond of Sarzana.

All those city names, especially the "XIsWise" ones, just reminded my of the smarmy, butt-kissing Dominion advisor from ST:DS9. "OOOoooh, the Founder is wise!"

	12-06-2002 19:34									#21
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Did you try "ye1786.sav" that I posted? That's the one where you can check the Sarzana values as is, then without rail, then without road.

	12-06-2002 19:51									#22
	Re: Politburo, schmolitburo Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Straybow "…I renamed it Sarzanagrad" Hey, don't b!tch at me. STYOM changed it to "AllWisdom" or some such, I changed it back (sort of) since you are so fond of Sarzana.

	12-06-2002 21:27									#23
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Thoddy Then the sav come and crush my 2.42.

Sorry for you , Thoddy
(no great surprise though if the sav was coming from the creator of the MAD canal =

	12-06-2002 21:31									#24
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BTW Thoddy, I don't think you really need that save, because the 50% bonus with roads and 100% with railroads have been tested by so many people that I am convinced that there is something wrong with your 33 and 66.

	13-06-2002 11:02									#25
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Trade test

ca_b4000.sav freights created
see cab4000.sav trade routes installed
spezial rules. -increased trade and movement for freights
Capital has Airport size 4
other cities size 1
all cities trade with Capital


------------------------------base trade--traderoute---sum

no road, no traderoute---------23--------------0----------------23
traderoute---------------------23---------------6---------------29
traderoute+road on opt path---23----------------9---------------32
traderoute+RR on opt path----- 23--------------12--------------35

-RR and Road bonus are lost if distance exceeds 22 tiles
-Airport has road effect (Airport)
-Airport + additional road has only road effect (r6)
-RR and road bonus cancelled if there is a enemy unit occupying the optimal path
(see partisan near updiagup)
-if there is a gap in the RR or road path only the city with the gap within
cityradius is affected by this (see rroad10)
-zero meridan cancels road and RR effects (see cities "zero..")


Seems my former statement was wrong. If I remember right I calculated the road
bonus in another way basing on the base trade. But my 1/3 is also not correct
basing on this test.

Attachment: cab4000.zip
This has been downloaded 5 time(s).

Last edited by Thoddy on 05-11-2002 at 15:08

	13-06-2002 11:32									#26
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Thank you, Thoddy - now we are all in agreement.

May I seek a clarification - does this mean that the 'optimal path' is irrelevent outside the city radius and thus if only trade considerations are important if we act like the AI and cover all city squares with RR we get maxed trade routes EVEN IF THE CITIES ARE NOT ACTUALLY CONNECTED ??

SG[1]

	13-06-2002 12:56									#27
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits May I seek a clarification - does this mean that the 'optimal path' is irrelevent outside the city radius and thus if only trade considerations are important if we act like the AI and cover all city squares with RR we get maxed trade routes EVEN IF THE CITIES ARE NOT ACTUALLY CONNECTED ?? SG[1]

Yes, it seems so, that building roads on the opt. path outside the city radius is not neccessary.

See the included sav, remove roads and RRs. Only 1 city will be affected by this,

But an enemy on the optimal path blocks the full path.

So if another player trade with only 1 city of its own, block this city with some units, the road bonus disappears a lot of trade is lost and with a little luck some cities fall into civil disorder.

I didnt test the foreign and island bonuses.

	13-06-2002 19:15									#28
	Inflate your Upload Space

Maybe interdiction by enemy units depends on being in city radius; I know for certain the route must be complete the whole way. For those who can load ye1786, if you send the unused Cavalry down to the plains tile below the mountain on the Sarzana route and pillage the RR, trade routes drop from +11 to +8. That is the only tile on the route not in any city radius.

I activated cheat and killed the two Engrs in the tile, then switched to Celts and cheated a Knights there. The diplomacy screen popped up and Comradess yerMa demanded the Celts break treaty with the Vikes. I said, "No!" and the Comradess declared war. I switched back to Scouse and Sarzana trade routes were +5.

Interdiction and incomplete routes matter outside the city radius. Whether that is always the case can't be determined from this test.

	13-06-2002 23:28									#29
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Thoddy: To post the disproof of your own claim is a righteous action. Well done.

Last edited by debeest on 15-06-2002 at 07:19

	14-06-2002 10:57									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow Interdiction and incomplete routes matter outside the city radius. Whether that is always the case can't be determined from this test.

Look at my save kill the partisan, and you will see a answer.

I think its not fair to say it "can't be determined from this test" without a look at the test save.