09-06-2002 23:36									#61
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Anyone here work in a university admissions department? Bunnrgrrl's aunt worked in one. Poor whites do get consideration for their economic circumstances. Which is why I was able to get into DePaul University. My grades certainly didn't get me there (but my test scores helped). Such admissions programs do take into account many factors, and not merely grades and test scores. But many factors are not simply quantifiable, which allows racists to claim that "less qualified" people are being passed over more qualified whites, even when it isn't the case. Should I be passed ahead of someone because I can answer more questions on a test about being a good fireman than someone who isn't 260 lbs and asthamatic? On the numbers alone, yes.

What anti-AA fanatics are keen to forget is that racism and sexism are alive and well and take a psychological toll. It has been proven that being a part of an oppressed group increases likelyhood of self-doubt while being in the power group increases self-confidence, both of which have an impact on test scores. In the real world, however, they don't have as much of an effect.

	10-06-2002 01:05									#62
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"Poor whites do get consideration for their economic circumstances. Which is why I was able to get into DePaul University."

DePaul's a Vincentian university however which has a specific mission to educate the poor, so that's not a good example .

"Bunnrgrrl's aunt worked in one. Poor whites do get consideration for their economic circumstances."

Show me a source showing that socioeconomics are used naiton-wide as a criteria, and how much of a weight is is compared to affirmative action.

"Such admissions programs do take into account many factors, and not merely grades and test scores. But many factors are not simply quantifiable, which allows racists to claim that "less qualified" people are being passed over more qualified whites, even when it isn't the case"

You should have seen the 60 minutes program on AA. Looking at a certain grade/test score combination for applicants at a certain level they found that about 85% of a sample of minorites and about 10% of whites were accepted(Don't remember exact numbers). When awarding points at U of Michigan, being a minorities was 20 points- 1/4 the total of points for a perfect GPA, and if I remember right, more total points then for a perfect SAT. With minorities being given such a large boost for the color of their skin, it's only natural they'd get accepted in place of whites who had achieved more.

"Such admissions programs do take into account many factors, and not merely grades and test scores."

Grades and test scores, are, however, along with class rank and the rigour of the student's schedule, the best indications we have of how good a student is and how prepared the student is for college. Do they tell the whole picture? No, but they are the best indicators they have. (And Yes, I think it is also stupid how much weight they put to non-academic ECs and essays).

"What anti-AA fanatics are keen to forget is that racism and sexism are alive and well and take a psychological toll. It has been proven that being a part of an oppressed group increases likelyhood of self-doubt while being in the power group increases self-confidence, both of which have an impact on test scores. In the real world, however, they don't have as much of an effect."

Oh, come on.

Psychological toll for being part of an opressed group? Overcoming whatever mental conditions you have is something that many have to deal with. Asians must face racism, and Jews must face anti-semitism, but neither of those groups are given AA. Someone could be in a poor psychological state because they were in a fight with a parent or a girlfriend, but they don't get AA! Or what about the people in highschool who are bullied/beaten up consistently? If anyone is being opressed, they are, but they don't get any AA.

	10-06-2002 01:08									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Monk As for you, DinoDoc, your suggestion "He considers them to be lesser races and not worth consideration", even if it's meant as a joke, says a lot more about you than anybody else around.

You know, I had decided to let this nausea inducing trollish comment go with my earlier comment until I thought about it a little me. Hueji and his whole offensive spiel about how Soviet tanks never rolled down his streets being the reason he was never mad about the name Djugashvili got under my skin and you'll have to forgive me if I decided to reply in kind.

	10-06-2002 01:16									#64
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quote: Hueji and his whole offensive spiel about how Soviet tanks never rolled down his streets being the reason he was never mad about the name Djugashvili...

Well, I just tried to explain why Communism does not give the same knee jerk reaction over here as it does over at your side... If you consider that offensive, I guess that's your problem, not mine...

	10-06-2002 01:21									#65
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Shi, you've either forgotten certain things from that report, or the report neglected to mention them:

Yes, you get 20 points for being a minority. You can also get 20 points for being poor.

But you CAN'T GET BOTH.

A poor white would get the exact same 20 points that a poor black would get.

You can get that 20 points from being an underrepresented minority, for being poor, for being an athlete, for being from an underrepresented geographical location, or at the "provost's discretion".

If you're a First Nations kid from the middle of nowhere in the UP who's lived in a log cabin his whole life, but plays a mean point guard, and you happened to save the provost's kid's life a few years ago, you don't get 100 points. You get 20.

And the poor white kid from a trailer park (or what-have-you) will also get 20.

I forget exactly how many points you get for being a "legacy", meaning your parents went to UM. It was either 5 or 10 points. You know, it's funny, I don't hear anti-affirmative action folks railing against that.

	10-06-2002 01:22									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij Well, I just tried to explain why Communism does not give the same knee jerk reaction over here as it does over at your side...

Only Eastern Europeans had to deal with the Soviets, so I guess it doesn't matter.

quote: If you consider that offensive, I guess that's your problem

I only have a problem with the feigned aura of moral superiority with which the demands that AS change his nick. You happened to present yourself as a convenient target.

	10-06-2002 02:01									#67
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"Feigned aura of moral superiority" my arse, DinoDoc. What kind of mewling ****wit names himself after a prominent nazi and slaver, then starts doling out threads on how eugenics to wipe out "idiots" is worthwhile, and how bullying people is a really good idea?

I'll tell you what kind of ****wit for nothing, DinoDoc. A deeply stupid and crass little boy. Now take your "feigned aura of moral superiority" and shove it right up your smug and self-satisfied arse until it splits open like an over-ripe plum. Once you start speaking out in defence of unapologetic nazis then you're just another cancer on the face of society.

Go on. Let's see some whining claptrap about failure to condem Stalinists. I could do with a really good laugh at your expense before I start my condemnation of them too.

	10-06-2002 02:23									#68
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quote: Were you as pissed over Djugashvilli?

And from that on, goodish part of Imran's and DinoDoc's postation can be summarized as:

HYPOCRITE! HYPOCRITE! You complained about Albert Speer's nick but not about Djugashvili's nick, so I'm going to dwell on this point instead of facing the music on Albert Speer's nick actually being offensive. You're a hypocrite, and that's what important here!

Hypocrisy argument rides strong!

Maybe Djugashvili's nick is offensive. Hell, it is offensive. Djug chose to name himself after a brutal, bloody-handed tyrant. However, this does nothing to absolve Albert Speer. I mean, what, is there some kind of a balance requirement in Apolyton posts now? "If you complain about something, make sure you complain about something from the other side as well, or you're a HYPOCRITE?"

	10-06-2002 02:28									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Ron Jeremy What kind of mewling ****wit names himself after a prominent nazi and slaver, ...

Now this is what I don't understand about the desire to have AS change his name, why wouldn't you want such idiots to label themselves as such? Why would you want them to blend in with the rest of society, Mr. Gimp?

quote: Once you start speaking out in defence of unapologetic nazis then you're just another cancer on the face of society.

Until you can show me where the nick breaks the forum rules, you can shove your opinions of me where the sun doesn't shine.

quote: I could do with a really good laugh at your expense

I hope I provide you with a little amusement.

	10-06-2002 02:32									#70
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Stefu: The fact that AS's nick is offensive doesn't detract from the fact that demanding it be changed is quite frankly stupid.

	10-06-2002 02:39									#71
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How come? If it's offensive people can demand it to be changed. If it doesn't break forum rules then he can't be banned for it - but that doesn't mean people can't complain.

Thanks to (frankly idiotic) American lack of rules concerning child-naming, there are children named "Vagina". That's legal, but that most certainly shouldn't stop people from thinking - and saying - that that's a damn stupid name.

	10-06-2002 02:42									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Stefu How come?

What does it actually accomplish other than making you look like an arse?

	10-06-2002 02:48									#73
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If it can't achieve anything, then why do you care?

	10-06-2002 02:49									#74
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What should be AS´s new user name?

	10-06-2002 02:51									#75
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"The Fascist Formerly Known As Albert Speer"?

	10-06-2002 02:51									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Stefu If it can't achieve anything, then why do you care?

I need to do something to pass the time.

	10-06-2002 02:52									#77
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Don't we all?

	10-06-2002 02:56									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Stefu "The Fascist Formerly Known As Albert Speer"?

Would be TFFKAAS then Sounds as stupid as his current nick...

	10-06-2002 04:19									#79
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quote: Rationally speaking Imran, yes you might have a point beneath your crusade to aid the teenage quasi-nazi, but why won't you just accept the fact that some people might have a problem here?

Some might have a problem, fine. But don't post in every post "Change you Screen name". ****ing annoying. Does he want people going over his posts telling him what they have problems with?

It's a bullshit reaction, and I frankly don't give two shits if the Nazis ran over his country. So what? Sucks to be him then.

	10-06-2002 05:53									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Shi, you've either forgotten certain things from that report, or the report neglected to mention them: Yes, you get 20 points for being a minority. You can also get 20 points for being poor. But you CAN'T GET BOTH. A poor white would get the exact same 20 points that a poor black would get. You can get that 20 points from being an underrepresented minority, for being poor, for being an athlete, for being from an underrepresented geographical location, or at the "provost's discretion". If you're a First Nations kid from the middle of nowhere in the UP who's lived in a log cabin his whole life, but plays a mean point guard, and you happened to save the provost's kid's life a few years ago, you don't get 100 points. You get 20. And the poor white kid from a trailer park (or what-have-you) will also get 20. I forget exactly how many points you get for being a "legacy", meaning your parents went to UM. It was either 5 or 10 points. You know, it's funny, I don't hear anti-affirmative action folks railing against that.

The report failed to mention it, but I am glad to hear U of Michigan consides socioeconomics. I still think it's unjust however, because a black rich kid does not deserve the same advantage as the white person from the trailer park. In fact, I would say the black rich kid does not deserve any extra points at all.

As far as legacies go, I oppose giving them advantages as well, especially at state institutions. But then again there aren't any fedeal laws regarding discrimination in favor of legacies.

And in any case, you have failed to show that I was making a "bald face" lie. Why don't you just retract that bit right now?

	10-06-2002 07:38									#81
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That wasn't directed at you, Shi. It was directed at the people who lead these charges against AA, people who know that what they are saying is wrong (poor whites are left behind). People who aren't as close to the situation (you, for instance) wouldn't have any idea that they are lying. You're not a liar; you were just deceived.

	10-06-2002 08:36									#82
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Right, I've been decieved.

Actually I came up with that argument before I heard anyone else used it, because it is the only logical consequence of what will happen. And in spite of all your protests it DOES happen, even at UM. If you get same points for being poor as for being a minority, then poor whites aren't being given the advantage over rich blacks that they should, just as any poor person should be given advantage over richer persons.

	10-06-2002 14:35									#83
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Why are America's grad school's filled with foreigners? Do we have anti-Americans affirmative action there too?

	10-06-2002 14:38									#84
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Another whiny thread about AA from a bunch of poor white boys. Same old garbage about how white boys are victims. Same old complaints that blame everyone else for their problems. Same old myths that have been dealt with before.



Grasp a simple concept. No matter how much you whine, white boys still have it made in the US. The ones who deserve to get into university do get in, as do many who do not deserve to get in. White boys have more job opportunities then anyone else. They'll earn more money than other people doing the same jobs.

In short, stop your whining. We've all heard the same tune countless times before.

	10-06-2002 15:04									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Stefu "The Fascist Formerly Known As Albert Speer"?

	10-06-2002 15:12									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Another whiny thread about AA from a bunch of poor white boys. Same old garbage about how white boys are victims. Same old complaints that blame everyone else for their problems. Same old myths that have been dealt with before. Grasp a simple concept. No matter how much you whine, white boys still have it made in the US. The ones who deserve to get into university do get in, as do many who do not deserve to get in. White boys have more job opportunities then anyone else. They'll earn more money than other people doing the same jobs. In short, stop your whining. We've all heard the same tune countless times before.

I'll stop complaining when we treat every person with the consideration they deserve, and not as a political football who is being used to perpetuate racial stereotyping and discrimination in the name of ending it. When you cease your support for racial discrimination I'll stop complaining about it.

Btw I'm not a 'boy', and according to the Nazis I'm not even 'white'. Why don't you quit your offensive racial categorizations while you are at it?

	13-06-2002 05:24									#87
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I'm lost... I said AA does not help poor blacks. I said nothing about white people... I only said it dont help poor blacks; it helps upper class blacks

	13-06-2002 06:29									#88
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And to AS's point above (despite his inflamatory nick which has been beaten to death many threads over), AA is often considred a hand down and an insult to those it intends to help. In every diversity class I've taken/led or been associated with, a resounding theme comes out regarding AA. It insults the reputation of the protected classes it tries to serve. Those that actually make it onto college into the white collar work force etc. always feel an additional baggage as they feel everyone looks at them with suspicion that they are not qualified but only got to where they are because of some form of AA.

I do beleive it vitally important as other suggest here that socioeconomics be the overriding determiner for such a program. Education is the key of course. Likewise I agree that diversity only helps a nation/company/organization as it allows different views and a richer background. But the idea of protected classes based upon religious/racial backgrounds I find so 1900's. Hence the move for a 2000 movement to look to the economically disavantaged first and foremost.

	13-06-2002 08:53									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer I'm lost... I said AA does not help poor blacks. I said nothing about white people... I only said it dont help poor blacks; it helps upper class blacks

Actually, you started this thread by saying that it just helps the middle class blacks.

What proof do you have that your assumption is correct?

A major point about AA is that it is designed to break racist barriers. So even if your assumption is correct, middle class and upper class blacks still need help in overcoming racist barriers.

The problem with these ongoing whines about AA is that people complain about what they think AA is without providing any substantial data to show whether AA is still prevalent and if it does exist, what exactly are the most common rules.

American newspapers have had AA programs in place for 25 years, but it is largely lip service, an empty program that just exists in name.

	13-06-2002 12:47									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai The problem with these ongoing whines about AA is that people complain about what they think AA is without providing any substantial data to show whether AA is still prevalent and if it does exist, what exactly are the most common rules. American newspapers have had AA programs in place for 25 years, but it is largely lip service, an empty program that just exists in name.

Actually, this is a problem for every side of the debate. The data are often non-existent, which means that the only thing which we can usually measure is the same thing that led to the impostion of AA in the first place, which is the racial / ethnic / religious makeup of a particular group of people. When a program is tried and succeeds or fails it would be very useful to know why.

Unfortunately, people are so touchy when they are grouped by racial / ethnic criteria that many executives and researchers don't want to follow up a program in order to explain it's (lack of) effectiveness lest they manage to turn up some data which offends someone's often overblown PC idealization of one of these ethnic groups. For instance, in the case of the newspapers failure to increase diversity over many years while supposedly trying to do so, is it intractible white racism in a field which tends to employ those who are much more liberal than average, or does it have something to do with the characteristics of the minority groups ("They don't value freedom of speech like we do."), or perhaps the program was well-intentioned but merely failed to reach a large group of minority would-be journalists because it was just poorly implemented. If I were running one of these papers and was being criticized for failing to increase diversity, I would think twice about investigating the program publicly. Either I am going to be called a racist, an incompetent, or accused of "blaming the victim".

Let's move to a color-blind approach, and tinker with it from there.