11-06-2002 02:22									#1
	New Artillery Unit Idea (Super Cannon) Enter the AD-FREE zone

In World War I, the Germans built a large immobile cannon that rained shells in Paris. Would this be a good idea for Civ III? It would have 0 movement, but maybe 5 or 6 bombing range, and it would be about three times as expensive as a standard artillery.

Also, I think Iraq was building one during the Iran War....

	11-06-2002 03:18									#2
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not a bad idea at all

	11-06-2002 03:57									#3
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Good idea.

But should it be possible to move it between cities with a sort of rebase mission? Or are you suggesting a unit that will only stay put and not move from the city. I ask because you'd eventually want to redeploy it closer to the front line, after you push the front line further into their territory.

	11-06-2002 04:15									#4
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You could always give it Airdrop and Immobile.

	11-06-2002 05:46									#5
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The Germans made several super (rail) guns, though the only one I can remember was called Big Bertha. They could move them, it just move very slooowly. I'd just give it 5-10 range and limit it to travelling on roads only. They geramns were able to move them, it just took a whole lot. They were mostly innefective but were useful as a terror tool.

	11-06-2002 05:59									#6
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I posted an idea for a great wonder: "Saddam's Supergun" a while ago. Available with rocketry and computers, the gun stays in one city (where its built), has infinate range and is leathal (weather or not leathal bombard is on or off).

Many scientist think it possible to shoot satellites into space with such a gun. If so, you could shoot a satellite, which becomes a reentry vehicle and strikes a target on the other side of the globe. This is essentially what ICBMs do now, onlt they use a rocket motor to get into space.

	11-06-2002 07:17									#7
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I have a problem with this idea. Sure, they've built super-guns in the past, but they've also built a lot of things. Should they include flamethrowing Pikemen or something? Of course not. The super guns of the past haven't had an impact upon things, so why should you be able to build something in Civ that would have such a great impact as a super gun? They were far too expensive to build and maintain for the results they produced. The massive German rail gun durin World War I required a crew of over 100 men to maintain, which is incredibly inefficient.

	11-06-2002 08:23									#8
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The gun the Germans had in WWII had a HUGE impact. It killed thousands over a period of months. It was one of the first terrorist type attacks aimed at civilians. There was a whole special on the History Channel about it.

	11-06-2002 08:32									#9
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Remember, each unit is actually a collection of individual units. That means, 1 < Super guns per unit. Such a thing would have to be a small wonder due to the incredible cost associated. The London Gun itself had no impact upon the course of the war. Yes it killed people, lots of things in wars do. As you said, it was a terror weapon... but did that make the British armies run from battle demoralized because of it? Of course not, it had no military impact nor a significant ability to cause population or building damage (on the scale that a bomber wing can, for instance), which is why I disagree with its inclusion.

	11-06-2002 09:32									#10
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Trip- I disagree. It wouldn't be useless. During World War 1, the Germans attack the Belgians at the forts of Liege got the crap beat out of them. Then they brought in 2 big berthas and bombarded the heck out of the Belgains and took the forts. If there was a unit like this, I think maybe it should be extremely expensive have a bombardment range of 5-10, and here's where my idea comes in. It could only travel on railroads just like the big berthas.

	11-06-2002 09:37									#11
	Re: New Artillery Unit Idea (Super Cannon) Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Sava In World War I, the Germans built a large immobile cannon that rained shells in Paris. Would this be a good idea for Civ III? It would have 0 movement, but maybe 5 or 6 bombing range, and it would be about three times as expensive as a standard artillery. Also, I think Iraq was building one during the Iran War....

yOU CAN already beat the crap out of the AI with normal artillery and naval bombardments. We don't need a supergun, unless we all sign a contract that Soren will program the AI to use the supergun effectively and we can't turn around and whine to him about the AI being TOO powerful.

Sheesh. People never learn.

	11-06-2002 17:51									#12
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I personally think that a new artillery type is desperately needed in the game but not the super cannon. The new artillery should be the self propelled artillery. It should have a movement of 2 and other stats should stay the same as regular arty but should not be capturable.

I find myself with 20 artillery (some captured some built) that cant keep up with the my advancing armor. It basically relegates the artillery to being solely a defensive unit when and useless for advancing. The self-propelled artillery is a must.

http://www.army-technology.com/proj...0/pzh20001.html
http://www.army-technology.com/proj...0/pzh20005.html
http://www.army-technology.com/proj...2000/index.html


Also, on my new units priority list is the air defense gun.

http://www.army-technology.com/proj.../tunguska1.html
http://www.army-technology.com/proj...uska/index.html

	11-06-2002 18:20									#13
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quote: Originally posted by johncmcleod Trip- I disagree. It wouldn't be useless. During World War 1, the Germans attack the Belgians at the forts of Liege got the crap beat out of them. Then they brought in 2 big berthas and bombarded the heck out of the Belgains and took the forts. If there was a unit like this, I think maybe it should be extremely expensive have a bombardment range of 5-10, and here's where my idea comes in. It could only travel on railroads just like the big berthas.

Are we talking rail guns, or super guns? If you're talking rail guns, then they're basically large siege guns. Big Bertha was a large, rail-mounted 420mm cannon, and useful for sieges. Something like the London Gun was useless, which is what I'm talking about.

	11-06-2002 20:40									#14
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Maybe what is needed is the opposite, not big guns but cheap little guns-- mortars. Only way I can think of implimenting in game would be to have additional unit similar to mech inf but now mech mortars, same def as mec inf but with offense have bombard capability.

	11-06-2002 22:37									#15
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I think its a good idea, but should only have a range of 3 squares and only travel on railroads.

A more pressing idea that should be considered is that of giving artillery a "Flak" Anti-Air capability, so you don't get pummeled to bits just because you've not invented flight yet.

I'm not saying it should be as powerful as a fighter, but you should be able to respond to bombing somehow rather than to just sit there and take it.

The percentage of hit probability could increase by 5% with every gun stationed in a square, up to a maximum of say 5 guns.

	11-06-2002 22:48									#16
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There are so many more important types of units not represented, a super gun would be far down on my list to include. Civ is very broad and general ... highly specific unique things seem kind of out of place to me.

Thats just how I see it though.

	11-06-2002 23:05									#17
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i have to agree with trip and the others on the usefulness of this gun. right now the AI hardly uses artillery in an efficent manner and to add this weapon to the arsenal of existing units would just make it that much easier to defeat the AI. i could see the weapon as a neat "terror" weapon if it could fire various payloads. as a stand alone weapon though, it would be useless.

there are other units not represented in this game that i would rather see come to life like a mobile AA unit or satellites that can "see" the board.

	12-06-2002 00:47									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Sava The gun the Germans had in WWII had a HUGE impact. It killed thousands over a period of months. It was one of the first terrorist type attacks aimed at civilians. There was a whole special on the History Channel about it.

But for the amount of time and resources it required, it wasn't really worth it. And terrorist attacks tend to strengthen the resolve of the enemy, not weaken it. Just look at the US today, after Sept. 11.

	12-06-2002 00:57									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Martock satellites that can "see" the board.

I clamour every chance I get that there needs to be a satellite network small wonder that allows for global recon ability. The lack of such is inexcuseable. We can send spaceships to AC but can't see what's on the other side of the world.

	12-06-2002 01:42									#20
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I really don't give a crap about the AI, I just want to bomb the comp with a super gun.

	12-06-2002 08:08									#21
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Yes, I agree it may be not useful, but still wouldn't it be fun?

	12-06-2002 08:32									#22
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

You... could always make one yourself...

	12-06-2002 09:39									#23
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I will. How?!?!

	12-06-2002 10:35									#24
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This is a reply I made in the editor additions thread. I posted it here because I think It applies to the topic(cannons) and all the ideas I had in a way were interrelated. Sorry if you saw these before:
--------------

I've just been thinking of ways you can expand the editor to do wonderful things in scenarios, even if they are unrealistic for the main game. I'm not asking these be included in the main game, just some ideas to make the editor far more expanisive:

"Atomic Cannon"- What about a trigger that makes a bombard unit launch nuclear shells, with the same damage as a ICBM or Tac Nuke? While something you would never use in the main game, it make for a intresting player-made scenario set in the future.

Expand the max. range for bombard and air units. Also, would it be possible to give a minimum range for bombard? That would be really helpful. 8 spaces for max range is just far too small.

Manhattan Project/Wonder as a unit prequisite: I was thinking about the MP wonder and came up with an intresting idea. Instead of hardcoding only one option(every civ builds nukes) what if you could make a wonder and use a trigger to toggle what buildings/units you can make with it. This way, things like the Apollo Program and Manhattan Project can be changed to build other superunits/structures or the player can have the option to add a whole different wonder. Let this be a great and small wonder option please.

I'm sure other people can think of other interesting toggles. Lets try to make the editor as open-ended as possible, so we can come up with all sorts of insane ideas!

	12-06-2002 17:08									#25
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I like this idea. But personally I've always like to idea of building units with 0 movment and are purley for defence of a city.

	12-06-2002 17:18									#26
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i made an anti aircraft missile in my mod (see sig), which essentially will be used solely for air defence and replace the ineffectual SAM site.

it works by being situated in a city (since it is immobile, with the air defence and rebase missions only), and will target anything that attacks within the 2 square city radius.

it has a good chance of destroying the attacking aircraft, however, it will always be destroyed much like the cruise missile is now. Voila.

the Ai was always hopeless at defending against human air-raids, so this kind of gives the AI a helping hand.

Unlike what Sava said earlier, i don't believe anything should be modded or added into the game that the AI will not use at least as effectively as the human.

	12-06-2002 17:28									#27
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I agree with what you guys are saying about the AI not using it. But if Firaxis were to add it, I assume they would take care of that.

	12-06-2002 18:57									#28
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the idea is interesting but now i'm thinking there might be another problem. IF the AI could use it with some sense, might it OVER USE it? as it stands now, the AI does little in the way of cleaning up pollution in it's own lands and in the game i'm currently playing, using nukes is just another way to hinder my inevitable march across the world. no ICBM's yet but tact nukes tend to fly the moment the are given life...er, launch codes. i'd be afraid to hand the AI something that will simply rain death, destruction, and pollution across my lands willy-nilly.

if it could be used in a manner that it could affect ONE tile instead of nine, i might be convinced that it's a good idea. personally, i think tact nukes and ICBM's do the job just fine.

Last edited by Martock on 12-06-2002 at 21:22

	12-06-2002 21:09									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I agree with what you guys are saying about the AI not using it. But if Firaxis were to add it, I assume they would take care of that.

If that were the case, then the AI would do a much better job of using quite a number of units better than it does now. I'm sure Soren would love to have an AI that could easily match wits with a human player, but computer technology is still to limited to allow that to happen just yet.

	12-06-2002 21:12									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Martock the idea is interesting but now i'm thinking there might be another problem. IF the AI could use it with some sense, might it OVER USE it?

There's always that possibility. I created some colorless land units for my game and there have been times that I regreted making them. At least they keep me on my toes.