17-02-2003 13:06									#421
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C'mon Eivind, what's the word here? I saw you post at CFC (here), have you been visiting Apolyton?

	17-02-2003 16:36									#422
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If you need a replacement after this, send me a message

	18-02-2003 04:43									#423
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Eivind is having trouble logging into Apolyton, so he asked me to post this:

quote: I have done nothing wrong! I used veteran Steam Warships in both attacks. Sorry, sas, they need no replacements after "this". Case closed!

Now I guess the only way I can respond is to let people see just how impossible this result was. I've attached a save with 5 veteran warships next to Athens, and 5 veteran warships next to Beirut. As you can see by playing it, each city is able to sink from 2 to 4 ships before succumbing.

Note that no matter how many times you replay, the first ship NEVER kills the infantry alone, and certainly NEVER at two different cities in the same turn.

I'm not going to sit here and accuse of anything, just presenting the facts about what happened. Play this turn and you can all see for yourselves.

	18-02-2003 05:02									#424
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Out of curiosity, i tried Darius save. And sadly i can confirm what Darius just said. The first ship NEVER kills the infantry alone.

I probably reloaded 8-12 times

	18-02-2003 07:00									#425
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I just tried 15 times, the first ship never killed the unit. Twice the unit in Beirut got in the red, and that's it. Generally the first ship got the unit down to somewhere in the middle

	18-02-2003 07:06									#426
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From Eivind, who still can't post:

quote: I am innocent! I swear on my most sacred word of honour! That result was clean, nomatter what your claims might be. This is really frustrating because I know by my self that I didn't do anything wrong. I don't know what more to say.

Well I don't know what to say. Killing a fortified oriental rifle unit on hills or with coastal fortifications is impossible with one veteran steam warship, period. So...?

	18-02-2003 07:47									#427
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What, then, will be the course of action to follow?

	18-02-2003 07:59									#428
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Well, if he continues to insist he got those results normally in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, I just don't know what to do (this hasn't happened before).

	18-02-2003 14:31									#429
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Three things;

1. How can it be a problem to log on to Apolyton and at the same time have no problem to log on to other sites? I thought you only need to be online and have an account here.

2. Eivind is listed as a former cheater. And even though i hate to see any player go (there are few enought as it is), this doesnt exactly give him much integrity.

3. I have tried to play the game some more and after over 50 reloads i still cant take a city without loosing a ship first. I think there is no way Eiving could have done what he claims.

	18-02-2003 17:25									#430
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I am not able to log onto the computer from my home computer, I am now at school.

Yes, I am listed as a former cheater, but I have reformed and have played clean since then. Why would I cheat a second time? I DID NOT CHEAT WHEN CAPTURING ATHENS AND BEIRUT!

I don't care if you don't belive me, I know by my self that I did not do anything wrong.

You willhave to decide amoung your selves if you want me to continue. I reloaded the turn until the city was captured, but that is not illegal. I know that it might be somewhat cowardly, but I did not change the rules. I did not cheat!

Last edited by Eivind IV on 18-02-2003 at 17:31

	18-02-2003 17:42									#431
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Ah these are the times that test mens souls.

Kobra, I think you need to explain exactly how this combat turn was played including approximately how many times you reloaded.

And no Im not following you around but you are in one of my historibus playtests and I have an interest in what happens here. Sorry just the way it is.

	19-02-2003 01:25									#432
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Guys!

After some more testing i DID manage to kill the defending unit in the cities without loosing the ship!

I guess this frees Eivind of the accusations made. I'm really sorry Eivind! I dont know how many times you reloaded, but it must have been alot. I think i reloaded allmost 70 times. You sounded sinere, and i would like to make sure the accusations where bullet proof. And as it turned out, they where not.

	19-02-2003 01:57									#433
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I think that all this reloading issue is becoming a bit of a pain in the neck.

	19-02-2003 02:03									#434
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quote: Originally posted by El Awrence I think that all this reloading issue is becoming a bit of a pain in the neck.

I will only speak for myself. I never reload unless i make a mistake that wasnt intended. Like attacking a unit i didnt intend to, or moving the unit the wrong way.

Reloading to death to get the result you want is perhaps not cheating, but i consider it a result you didnt deserve. Meaning i can never know if you reload to get the result you want, but you will never be the winner in my view if i knew you did it

So in the case with Eiving here, i dont think he deserves the cities he took. But thats just my opinion.....

	19-02-2003 02:32									#435
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Indeed, it's not cheating, but it's definetly 'unsporting'.

	19-02-2003 04:56									#436
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Well folks, I've never considered reloading a few times cheating, but this is completely different. As sas said, Eivind would have had to reload damn near 100 times for one city, and then 100 times for the other city. I think sitting and doing it for that long for a result that unrealistic should be considered cheating, but if I'm the only one I guess we play on. I'm not going to be a pri*k and leave or anything.

While we're on the subject, did you ever reload several dozen times to beat my AA batteries in the old ZWK game?

Last edited by Darius871 on 19-02-2003 at 05:31

	19-02-2003 05:37									#437
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quote: Originally posted by sas After some more testing i DID manage to kill the defending unit in the cities without loosing the ship!

Btw, after reading this I reloaded dozens of times just to confirm. I was able to empty Athens, but never Beirut. I tried Beirut at least 50 times, and it's undoubtedly a tougher nut than Athens was. Sas, did you just take one city or both?

	19-02-2003 05:45									#438
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Kobra go ahead and get pissed at me for saying this, but well, it just had to be said.

What is the difference between reloading a turn 50, 100, 150 times and just changing the attack value in rules.txt if the results are the same?

And no &$*%$*$ reloading in the Historibus Game.

Last edited by conmcb25 on 19-02-2003 at 10:29

	19-02-2003 07:43									#439
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I'm beginning to think that PBEMs will start being played by invitation, rather than 'first come first serve' basis, and I believe we should start doing it as soon as possible.

	19-02-2003 09:08									#440
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I also so reloading as pretty innocuous up to this. But there's a world of difference between reloading a few times and being willing to do it up until you get the results you want. And refusing to lose a single unit in the process is ridiculous.
It's totally unfair to the rest of the players, because it gives Britain, which already has a huge advantage over everyone else, an even bigger one. If a ship wins 1 out of 100 times against a unit, then a 1% success rate is the odds it should have. But if you reload until you get the desired result, you have a 100% success rate. This puts everyone who doesn't do this at a huge disadvantage, while it may not technically be cheating, is certainly not playing by the rules

	19-02-2003 09:25									#441
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James: yeah I agree, successive reloading is really unsporting, but not cheating. ie it should be frowned upon

	19-02-2003 09:28									#442
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When the community decided not to ban reloading, 50-100 times is not what they had in mind. I'm pretty strict about it, but I'm willing to accept it when people reload a few times. However, taking Athens and Beirut would have taken an EXTREMELY long time. I think there should be a certain point where it indeed is considered cheating, and what happened here is far beyond that point.

	19-02-2003 09:33									#443
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But how do you know if it is excessive replaying or they jsut got lucky with the combat calculator?

	19-02-2003 09:39									#444
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quote: Originally posted by The ANZAC But how do you know if it is excessive replaying or they jsut got lucky with the combat calculator?

When it happens 6 times in 3 or so consequitive turns?

	19-02-2003 10:02									#445
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quote: Originally posted by The ANZAC But how do you know if it is excessive replaying or they jsut got lucky with the combat calculator?

Play the SP turn I posted. It takes some 50-100 tries to empty either city. I'm saying this because I tried 50 times and never emptied them, so it must be somewhere over 50 if indeed it is possible (and like sas said it took him 70). No amount of luck could make it so that he had to reload less than 10 times.

	19-02-2003 10:06									#446
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Btw, we don't know for sure that he had two veteran warships around, since nobody's checked the save. Could someone take a look at Britains unit positions, health, unit codes, etc. and establish this first? If there were no warships around or perhaps some but not veterans, then all this reloading talk would be mute.

	19-02-2003 10:37									#447
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quote: Originally posted by The ANZAC But how do you know if it is excessive replaying or they jsut got lucky with the combat calculator?

In this case I believe that is easy to answer. I can believe a lucky break on the calculator for one combat, I would even accept that as an explanation. But two EXTREMELY lucky combats like that in the same turn? Now that I cant buy.

And what do you mean it isn't cheating? What the heck is the matter with peoples values now a days?

The combat calculator is set up to play the game once NOT reload 50, 100, or 150 times!

And again Im going to use this arguement. What is the difference between reloading 25, 50, 100 times and just changing the rules.txt. The result is the same.

Sounds like a free pass to me. I can start changing rules.txt and just say well I reloaded 100 times.

Bah. It is AT LEAST VERY UNSPORTING. But I still think its cheating.

OK Ill shut up. This is your guys PBEM you do what you want.

But Kobra if we catch you "reloading" in Historibus your out of that PBEM, period.

	19-02-2003 10:57									#448
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quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 Sounds like a free pass to me. I can start changing rules.txt and just say well I reloaded 100 times.

DAMN good point. Letting this slide sets a dangerous precedent, since from now on anyone who cheats for real can just say they reloaded, and play on.

	19-02-2003 14:55									#449
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quote: Originally posted by Darius871 Btw, we don't know for sure that he had two veteran warships around, since nobody's checked the save. Could someone take a look at Britains unit positions, health, unit codes, etc. and establish this first? If there were no warships around or perhaps some but not veterans, then all this reloading talk would be mute.

After looking at the game, i can confirm that the Brits did have 2 Veteran Steam Warships in close enough proximity to make the attacks. One in Candia, and one west of Athens.

quote: Btw, after reading this I reloaded dozens of times just to confirm. I was able to empty Athens, but never Beirut. I tried Beirut at least 50 times, and it's undoubtedly a tougher nut than Athens was. Sas, did you just take one city or both?

I did manage to empty both cities. So at least it is possible to do it without altering the rules. But then again, i have to agree that i can see very little difference between altering the rules to achieve your goals or reloading the game to death

I'm not a part of this game, but i suggest we all come to some kind of agreement on this issue. And i suggest you guys let Eivind off with a VERY strict warning this time. But it's really up to the rest of you to decide that. I will for sure pay more attention from now on..

	19-02-2003 15:09									#450
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I just want to stress that this is nothing I do regulary. Yes, I did reload several times, but I did not brake any rule, ergo I did not cheat. Unsporting maybe, and for that I will give my most sincere apology. I can ashure you that it would never be repeated if you let me continue. Sorry guys!