13-06-2002 22:00									#31
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara But he's wrong about other things (like the existence of a God

So you know for a fact that God doesnt exist then? It must be great to be omnipotent.

	13-06-2002 22:01									#32
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You forget the chegitz test. I disagree with him, therefore he must be wrong.

Che, I'm not interested in another go round with you or imran, all I can say is we agree to disagree and let it go at that.

Last time I started getting hot at Imran and said stupid things, I have no desire to repeat that experience.

	13-06-2002 22:04									#33
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quote: No, it doesn't, as he was interested in a free India for indains through non-violent means, at no time did the equality of all people come into play

The equality of Indians was at the forefront of Gandhi's nationalist movement. He believed the only way for Indians to be free and equal was if they could run their own state.

quote: My apologies, I should have said he's "idiotic". That's your exact wording, isn't it?

Yep, that one statement of his is idiotic. Now how that applies to him as a whole, I can't understand. Logical Fallacy from you, attributing the part to the whole.

quote: All I see here is people saying MLK made an idiotic statement and not a saint because it contrasts with their beliefs.

It is an idiotic statement, no matter who makes it. It shows a great ignorance. And no man is a saint (even saints ).

	13-06-2002 22:06									#34
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You should have read my last post before continuing.

	13-06-2002 22:08									#35
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Well, I wasn't going to let you get the last word in that debate .

	13-06-2002 22:10									#36
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You did my work for me.

	13-06-2002 22:12									#37
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Actually, Ghandi was very concerned with the civil rights of the untouchables. One of his goals was the overthrow of the caste system.

	13-06-2002 22:39									#38
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Kisinger long ago admitted his culpability in the Chilean coup. Furthermore, there is masive amounts of documentary evidence to back it up. "I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist due to the irresponsibility of its own people."

But the point of my post was that Kissinger should not be held legally responsible for actions taken by the Pinochet government, regardless of whatever role he had in bringing it about.

	13-06-2002 22:45									#39
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Perhaps not, but he should be held responsible for the actions that brought it about, including the murder of the Head of Chilean armed forces (the plan and weapons ame from Kissinger), the coup itself, and the murders of three Americans during the coup, since they were given up by US intelligence (as well as anyone else on those lists). There is also the matter of Letalier (sp?) murder, in which Kissinger is implicated has having a direct role.

	13-06-2002 22:52									#40
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Your point is not relevant since this is obviously a trolling thread, that has nothing to do with actual laws or logic.

	13-06-2002 22:59									#41
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I would say it is time to renegotiate our relationship with Chile if the Chilean government permits the extradition request to go forward without the permission of the US government.

In my opinion, any extradition request for a US citizen, particularly a member of its government, should be first made to the government of the United States. If that request is denied, it should not be recognized by any state with whom the United States has diplomatic relations. Arresting an ex-government official for war crimes or crimes against humanity without the permission of the United States is an act of war on the United States.

This is not about Kissinger. This is about the United States.

	13-06-2002 23:08									#42
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Since some folks are so gung-ho are nailing Kissinger's ass to the wall, when are they going to go after his counterparts in the Soviet Union? I mean, as "bad" as Kissinger allegedly is, surely his counterparts are much, much worse? Yet you never hear folks around here bleating too much about trying to nail them to the cross. Why?

Gatekeeper

	13-06-2002 23:10									#43
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quote: Arresting an ex-government official for war crimes or crimes against humanity without the permission of the United States is an act of war on the United States.

Obviously you haven't read this thread at all.

Try reading it again, starting with Adam Smith's first thread... you know the one about a witness.

	13-06-2002 23:17									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper Since some folks are so gung-ho are nailing Kissinger's ass to the wall, when are they going to go after his counterparts in the Soviet Union? [. . .]

Because we have no control over the Russians, where as we have some control over our own country and its leaders.

	13-06-2002 23:52									#45
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Actually, Ghandi was very concerned with the civil rights of the untouchables. One of his goals was the overthrow of the caste system.

this is actually not true. I just talked to 3 indians at the convienant store yesterday. The class system was discontinued 300 years ago. It only applies for warriors of India this day. Its not mandatory, some continue as tradition. But the state enforced system dropped out of sight along time ago. And the whole caste system hasnt been practice on a large scale for hundreds of year.

	13-06-2002 23:54									#46
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Bullshit Che, we can definitely pressure the Russians to hand over the various war criminals it has from the Cold War. But since they were committing atrocities for a cause that you believe in, they aren't culpable. Just goes to show how full of it you are sometimes.

	13-06-2002 23:54									#47
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I wouldnt worry about kissinger. they wont get him. No one can prove he killed a single cambodian in Vietnam. Nobody. Nor that he gave orders to do so. Ive explained this time and again. Such evidence against him could never stand up in a court, only a show trial.

	13-06-2002 23:55									#48
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faded... the caste system existed in some forms up to Gandhi's day. The untouchables still existed, even though there weren't the vast variety of castes that had been in existance say... in 1000 AD. It was still basically kept in force, even after the Moghuls took control of the subcontinent.

	14-06-2002 00:01									#49
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"The untouchables still existed"

That may be true, but I was told from Indian Hindu's , no the system has existed for hundreds of years. They said the british broke it up because it was seen as a Nationalist and cultural movement. The only caste system that has existed that the british allowed where the warriors. Sons of warriors, become warriors, who's sons become warriors. But really anyone could join or get conscripted to the Indian army. Just it was mandatory for the sons of the warrior caste to become soldiers.

Interesting System, I want to read more about it.

	14-06-2002 00:05									#50
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The British TRIED to break it up. In a lot of cases they did, but they didn't destroy it completly. The culture of the people continued a bastardized caste system, but it still was there.

	14-06-2002 00:20									#51
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Imran, I read the article. It notes that Kissinger has not replied to the questions. But do you really believe that once in Chile that Kissinger will simply be released after answering the questions. I don't. Further, I have never heard of anyone being arrested and extradited for not answering the questions propounded by a judge in a different country. These things are normally treated as matters of comity.

This reminds me of the recent lawsuit against Yahoo by the French for having an auction page for trading Nazi memorabilia.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/wo...000/1032605.stm

The trading of Nazi memorabilia is not illegal in the US. However, the only way Yahoo could stop French citizens from accessing the trading cite was to eliminate it. But this would violate the US constitution if the judge was a US judge.

So what we have is Yahoo must either comply with an unconstitutional order or face enormous fines in France.

Thinks are getting out of hand, IMHO.

	14-06-2002 00:28									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Felch X Bullshit Che, we can definitely pressure the Russians to hand over the various war criminals it has from the Cold War.

No, we citizens of the United States have no power over Russia. If we did have that kind of power, a lot of government thugs from around the world would have been dealt with long ago. We can't even force our own government to try its own war criminals, what makes you think the government's going to start pressuring Russia on our behalf?

The next problem you're going to have is identifying Russian war criminals, since the USSR undertook no offensive actions and engaged in only one war outside its territory. And while the war in Afganistan certainly wasn't pretty, a lot of the atrocities that are claimed didn't happen, such as the infamous toy mines.

And FG, the evidence against Kissinger is overwhelming. If he goes to court, it's over for him.

	14-06-2002 00:32									#53
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The next problem you're going to have is identifying Russian war criminals, since the USSR undertook no offensive actions and engaged in only one war outside its territory. And while the war in Afganistan certainly wasn't pretty, a lot of the atrocities that are claimed didn't happen, such as the infamous toy mines.

We could start with its use of fuel air bombs in its war against Chechen rebels.

	14-06-2002 00:34									#54
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"And FG, the evidence against Kissinger is overwhelming. If he goes to court, it's over for him."

Bullshit che. Not in cambodia which is the corner stone of any trial.

Prosecuter: I say Kissinger ordered the bombing which killed 100,000 cambodian civilians living on the vietnam border.

Defendant: I say those 100,000 people were rounded up by pol pot a few years later and killed

Judge: Thats a damn good point.....does the prosecution have any evidence that those people were killed by B-52's and not genocidal communists?

	14-06-2002 00:37									#55
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc We could start with its use of fuel air bombs in its war against Chechen rebels.

Or there systematic destruction of grozny which killed tens of thousands and forced 300,000 to flee.

This whole court is a joke. It just wants to score political points. Not interested in human rights.

And niether are you Che

So stop the bullshit

	14-06-2002 00:40									#56
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quote: But do you really believe that once in Chile that Kissinger will simply be released after answering the questions.

Yes.

--

Um... guys?

Chechnya was AFTER the USSR fell apart. We were talking about the USSR, right?

	14-06-2002 00:42									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Chechnya was AFTER the USSR fell apart. We were talking about the USSR, right?

Stop raining on my parade!

	14-06-2002 00:43									#58
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. . .it still exists, sorta. Random Amnesty link:

http://web.amnesty.org/802568F7005C...02569000069331F

& Dalit rights:

http://www.indiatogether.org/dalit/dalit.htm

IIRC, VS Naipaul writes some about it in books, too. Good prose.

	14-06-2002 00:44									#59
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quote: Stop raining on my parade!

"Raindrops keep falling on my head..."

	14-06-2002 00:45									#60
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I'm surprised on one caught me on Berlin, Hungary, and Czechoslovakia. Man, my brain is fading. Soon I'm gonna be like a leftie version of Faded Glory.