14-06-2002 09:10									#91
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever perhaps when the Soviet Union insists on taking the moral high ground on world issues?

It did try to take the moral high ground. All nations do, even if only for propaganda reasons. The Soviet Union's claim, specifically, was that it was protecting the proletariet from the imperialist capitalists and whatnot.

Just because it was so violent and destructive that Che disregards a massacre of 10,000 Poles as nothing out of the ordinary for Stalin (Che is certainly right about that) does not mean that the Soviet Union did not try to take the moral high ground.

Hell even the Taliban tries to take the moral high ground.

	14-06-2002 09:20									#92
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quote: Kissinger to be extradited?

Won't happen unless some extraordinary political changes take place.

	14-06-2002 09:23									#93
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You make it sound as if I'm flip about it being relatively "minor" massacre. I wasn't.

	14-06-2002 09:27									#94
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The DPRK is not the USSR. While the Soviets certainly supplied the DPRK and Soviets piloted DPRK MiGs, the actions of the DPRK can't really be placed at the foot of any living Soviet cold warrior. This comes closest, since the DPRK and the USSR were tight. But Stalin and his henchmen are all long in the ground. You'll have a very diffiult time prosecuting anyone for this unless you like prosecuting corpses.

The relationship between the "Democratic People's Republic of Korea" (I wonder when they're going to get around the the democracy part of that name) and the Soviet Union was roughly on par with what the United States had with (Lon Nol?) the military regime in Cambodia, and Chile under Pinochet. I listed these as offensive acts by the Soviet Union and its allies, since it is reasonable to hold a superpower accountable for the actions of its puppet regimes. I certainly would hold the US equally responsible if one of its allies were to invade a Communist nation.

quote: South Vietnam wasn't a legitmate country. It's people had voted for union with the North in 1956. In any event, the USSR didn't control them. Not a Soviet war crime.

The people never had a chance to vote in 1956, the US and GVN had the elections cancelled . I included the North Vietnamese to demonstrate that allies of the Soviet Union were engaged in offensive action. You are right that the USSR had no control over them, however it was a Communist attack of an American puppet state, and the people involved did commit a crime against the peace.

Remember Che, that just because you don't recognize the legitimacy of a regime, it doesn't mean that the civilians who live under that regime should be subject to a military invasion, and suffer loss of life and property as a result.

quote: Mmmm, taking the side of the legitimate government against a proxy army of hired thugs and a South African invasion. That's soooo bad. Not a Soviet war crime.

Those were our hired thugs. Besides, I bet that if you checked you could find some atrocities committed by government forces during the war, while they were being supplied and trained by the Soviets.

The Chinese, Laotian and Cambodian examples really don't tie in very well with the Soviets, you're right about that.

quote: My bad, let me rephrase to legitimate offensives. Only a fool would argue that the USSR should merely have driven the Nazi's back to the Soviet border.

No but I'm sure the people of Poland, Lithuania, East Germany, Romania, and the rest of Eastern Europe would have appreciated it if the Soviets hadn't hung around for another half of a century.

Poland reminds me of the September 1939 invasion by the Soviets, which led to the capture of large tracts of Polish territory by Stalin.

I suppose there is no sense trying to convince you that a book you disagree with might be true, so I won't bother.

	14-06-2002 09:30									#95
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You make it sound as if I'm flip about it being relatively "minor" massacre. I wasn't.

I didn't mean that. What I meant was that Stalin was so brutal, this was sort of like a blip on a chart. You rightfully recognized it as nothing out of the ordinary for Stalin.

	14-06-2002 09:36									#96
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Two quick points then sleepy land, the large tracts of land captured from Poland were seized by Poland in their 1920 invasion of Russia. The USSR just took 'em back. According to the news reports at the time, as the Red Army invaded Poland, the Ukrainian and Byelorussian peasants seized the lands of their Polish overlords. Mini-revolution.

According to John Stockwell, CIA chief of operations in Angola, we were bad guys there. One thing he said has always stuck out. When UNITA was driven out of an area, the Cuban and MPLA troops would bring in food and doctors. He said, such a simple thing, and it never occured to us.

	14-06-2002 09:43									#97
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Well yeah we were the bad guys. I never said we weren't. But the Soviets did bad things too. And you've been ducking around that question for a while now.

In any event, I was only posting to get your panties in a bunch. Good night.

	14-06-2002 09:45									#98
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The secret to winning is stay on the offensive, Felchie. Don't ya play Civ.

	14-06-2002 13:37									#99
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quote: The DPRK is not the USSR. While the Soviets certainly supplied the DPRK and Soviets piloted DPRK MiGs, the actions of the DPRK can't really be placed at the foot of any living Soviet cold warrior. This comes closest, since the DPRK and the USSR were tight.

1) You asked for offensives undertaken by the Soviet Union and it's allies.

2) According to a book on Korwan history I read a while ago, Documents were released at some point that revealed Stalin's personal authorisation for a North Korean invasion of South Korea.

	14-06-2002 17:03									#100
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He didn't ask for offensives by its allies. I tossed them in, because I felt that in the superpower struggle, the Soviet Union and the United States were both responsible for proxy wars.

But I do believe that you are right about Stalin's authorization. It is things like that that make proxy wars the responsibility of the superpowers.

And Che, I play Civ as a libertarian. I kick ass doing the ICS in Civ2 (ruthlessly expanding market share and not wasting tax dollars on "feeding the poor" or any hippie **** like that ), but I get spanked at Civ3. Mostly because I haven't played enough of it to get used to the rules.