15-06-2002 08:12									#91
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Call them names fine, but don't use racial epithets, unless you're a comedian of the target group.

so why don't we start erasing words. that'll work. we can just use terms like "double plus good" instead of "fan-facking-tastic" because the latter might offend someone.

oh, and since we're on the subject, if i can't call someone a pollak, nobody dare call me a RED or I will EDIT: probably do nothing.

	15-06-2002 08:21									#92
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red? are you a communist?

	15-06-2002 08:22									#93
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oh, and morb, might want to rethink the "...or I will kill you" bit. I've seen bans and PCRs for less threatening things than that...

	15-06-2002 08:30									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Orange: A black person could not know your intent, and based upon past history, they would be perfectly justified in assuming your intention was malicious.

oh that's funny. so you're saying that "based upon past history" I would be perfectly justified in believing that all arabs/muslums wish to do me harm (which is not true of me personally anyway).

way to double back on your argument champ.

	15-06-2002 08:34									#95
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very good analogy, morb!

	15-06-2002 08:35									#96
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quote: Originally posted by orange oh, and morb, might want to rethink the "...or I will kill you" bit. I've seen bans and PCRs for less threatening things than that...

fine, i won't kill you. I will just get all the russians on the board to dump on you.

	15-06-2002 08:37									#97
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quote: Originally posted by morb oh that's funny. so you're saying that "based upon past history" I would be perfectly justified in believing that all arabs/muslums wish to do me harm (which is not true of me personally anyway). way to double back on your argument champ.

If an arab approached you using a racial slur, like say, "red," you'd have every right to be offended and angered.

I wasn't saying blacks should mistrust all whites based on the past. I was saying that if a white person addresses a black person with the epithet "nigger," why shouldn't the black person be offended?

Do you have a clue what we're discussing here?

	15-06-2002 08:38									#98
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quote: Originally posted by orange very good analogy, morb!

No, it was quite flawed, as I pointed out.

	15-06-2002 08:40									#99
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no, i still like it. why should someone assume bad things about someone else simply because of their race? Forget "nigger" how about "nigga" since we want to get all up on semantics here...

if I say to a black person "hey my nigga" why should he be perfectly justified in assuming that my intention is malicious?

	15-06-2002 08:47									#100
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quote: Originally posted by orange no, i still like it. why should someone assume bad things about someone else simply because of their race? Forget "nigger" how about "nigga" since we want to get all up on semantics here... if I say to a black person "hey my nigga" why should he be perfectly justified in assuming that my intention is malicious?

If he doesn't know you, and knowing that white people still use "nigger" as a racist epithet, why shouldn't he assume your intent is malicious? At the very least, he would assume that mr. suburban white guy is making fun of the urban black dialect.

You're looking at this from a white worldview. One of the keys to diversity, which you so admire, is learning to see things from the perspective of others.

And again, to draw to something I'm more familiar with, people still bash gays these days, murder them even, and call them faggots viciously (See Fred "God Hates Fags" Phelps). If I didn't know you and you came up to me and addressed me as "faggot," you'd better believe my gut reaction would be you're a homophobic basher and I'd get the hell away from you.

But if a friend walks up to me in a bar and says "what's up, faggot?", why on earth should I be offended? Especially since by using that word in that connotation, it actually helps make it a little less painful.

From a heterosexual perspective, that is going to be hard to understand, because you haven't had to cope with the painful isolation and self-worth issues associated with being a homosexual in society that treats gays as second-class citizens.

The same applies, IMO, for blacks, who still are treated, by and large, as less-than-full-Americans, whether consciously or subconsciously.

	15-06-2002 08:50									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov If an arab approached you using a racial slur, like say, "red," you'd have every right to be offended and angered. I wasn't saying blacks should mistrust all whites based on the past. I was saying that if a white person addresses a black person with the epithet "nigger," why shouldn't the black person be offended? Do you have a clue what we're discussing here?

the core of your argument was that a black person is naturally going to be justified in being mistrusting and suspicious of a white guy "based on history." Assuming that the white guy (he'd have to be pretty damn big if we're talking about the real world here) is automatically going to wish the black guy ill by saying "my nigga" or whatever is analogous to me justified in being suspicious of an arab at an airport "based on past history." just because the arab doesn't say anything, the analogy is not flawed, because the "history" is different. get it?

	15-06-2002 08:53									#102
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quote: If he doesn't know you, and knowing that white people still use "nigger" as a racist epithet, why shouldn't he assume your intent is malicious? At the very least, he would assume that mr. suburban white guy is making fun of the urban black dialect.

I could be from the city, and have plenty of black friends, and use the term in the same way that you claim it's used in a positive way by members of that race.

Similarly, I can't see why on earth someone would say "Hey faggot" to a gay friend even if they were gay...can't they pick ANY other word to express friendship?? Why a word that has caused so much harm in the past, and continues to cause harm in the present!?!

	15-06-2002 09:03									#103
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quote: Originally posted by morb the core of your argument was that a black person is naturally going to be justified in being mistrusting and suspicious of a white guy "based on history." Assuming that the white guy (he'd have to be pretty damn big if we're talking about the real world here) is automatically going to wish the black guy ill by saying "my nigga" or whatever is analogous to me justified in being suspicious of an arab at an airport "based on past history." just because the arab doesn't say anything, the analogy is not flawed, because the "history" is different. get it?

Why you are being so confrontational about this is bewildering. You came into this discussion with a bad attitude, whereas we were all discussing it in a rational, friendly manner before. I suggest you leave until you can discuss things without being insulting to people who have different opinions.

I don't think there's anyone here who will, being honest, say that when they are in airport and see a man of middle eastern descent, they don't get in the back of their mind a little twinge of suspicion. Human nature, and given recent events, totally understandable.

That doesn't give one the right to treat that person badly or illegally, but I don't think anyone could help but get a little nervous. That's not bad, as it might make someone more alert.

This is, of course, veering to irrelevancy for the issue of racial slurs.

	15-06-2002 09:08									#104
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quote: Originally posted by orange I could be from the city, and have plenty of black friends, and use the term in the same way that you claim it's used in a positive way by members of that race.

You could be Jesus Christ walking the earth, but if a black kid has only seen white people saying "nigger" as a racial slur, what else is he supposed to think?

How you can't see the difference is bewildering.

quote: Similarly, I can't see why on earth someone would say "Hey faggot" to a gay friend even if they were gay...can't they pick ANY other word to express friendship?? Why a word that has caused so much harm in the past, and continues to cause harm in the present!?!

I went over this several times. It's diffusing the word through a humorous usage among those its meant to hurt. What better way to reduce the harm a word can cause to your psyche than to twist into something promoting solidarity with similar people and defiance of the very word itself?

Banning the words only give them more potency to hurt.

	15-06-2002 09:14									#105
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wait a minute. my first post was not addressed to you at all and should not concern you at all. secondly, I think I've been pretty rational concidering you were trying to suggest I hadn't a clue what the convo was about in the first place.

are you trying to tell me that i can't play in this sandbox just because I've disagreed with you and backed up my point and you don't seem to have a decent counter argument? who's being irrational?

	15-06-2002 09:21									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov You could be Jesus Christ walking the earth, but if a black kid has only seen white people saying "nigger" as a racial slur, what else is he supposed to think? How you can't see the difference is bewildering.

The way in which the word is used, and the expression on the face, should be more of an indicator of how the word is meant to be used than the colour of his skin.

quote: I went over this several times. It's diffusing the word through a humorous usage among those its meant to hurt. What better way to reduce the harm a word can cause to your psyche than to twist into something promoting solidarity with similar people and defiance of the very word itself?

I still think it's pretty ****ing rotten...and I still think that if you want to make it 'ok' for a gay person to use it, than you should make it 'ok' for a straight person to use it as well, assuming the same tone and use.

quote: Banning the words only give them more potency to hurt.

You can't really 'ban' words like that anyway...i'm just saying the more you use them, the more socially accepted they become...but if you stop using them becuase they cause pain, then they aren't used OR accepted by anyone...

can an arab say to an arab friend "yo sandnigger what's up?" without getting a few surprised expressions from onlookers??

	15-06-2002 09:21									#107
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quote: I don't think there's anyone here who will, being honest, say that when they are in airport and see a man of middle eastern descent, they don't get in the back of their mind a little twinge of suspicion. Human nature, and given recent events, totally understandable.

going back to the D.C. example and combinding with what you've just said here, again, "based on past history" it would then be justifiable to be a little suspicious of black people at night in downtown D.C. (i've never been so I'm going by the example). this is in all honesty. so if you were going to D.C. and a friend told you "hey be careful around black people in downtown D.C. at night" you would sit them down and have a lecture on how that's "a racist thing to say?"

I don't see exactly where you are coming from.

	15-06-2002 09:22									#108
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quote: Originally posted by morb oh that's funny. so you're saying that "based upon past history" I would be perfectly justified in believing that all arabs/muslums wish to do me harm (which is not true of me personally anyway). way to double back on your argument champ.

This is the first post you addressed to me, and I had not addressed anything to you prior to this. It is a confrontational, condescending tone, "champ."

You seem to be ignoring my very decent counterarguments (namely, that your arguments aren't analogous to the discussion at hand) in favor of being insulting. All I'm saying is you're spoiling what was, until your arrival, a reasoned and amicable debate.

	15-06-2002 09:27									#109
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ok. whatever then. i gotta go anyway.

	15-06-2002 09:37									#110
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quote: Originally posted by orange The way in which the word is used, and the expression on the face, should be more of an indicator of how the word is meant to be used than the colour of his skin.

That would be nice, but tone and facial expression can be just as easily as misinterpreted as anything else. Think of it in context. If you were standing on a street and a black guy approached you and said "hey, whitey," I bet you'd be pretty damned defensive about it. But, if you've grown up with other white kids and a good friend says "what's up, whitey," I would think you could take it as a joke, right?

quote: I still think it's pretty ****ing rotten...and I still think that if you want to make it 'ok' for a gay person to use it, than you should make it 'ok' for a straight person to use it as well, assuming the same tone and use.

I see nothing rotten about it, I think it is empowering. Take the word "queer." It was once as bad as "faggot" as a homophobic slur. But then gays began calling themselves "queer." Now it's a word that has pretty much lost it's power to offend, and "Queer Studies" is a course at many universities. And if a homophobe uses the word "queer," it sounds almost antiquated, like calling a black a "negro." Wouldn't you like to see "faggot" disarmed in such a way?

quote: You can't really 'ban' words like that anyway...i'm just saying the more you use them, the more socially accepted they become...

Which is the best way to destroy their hurtful connotations. I don't care if the word "faggot" is still around 100 years from now or not. What I care about is that, 100 years from now (and hopefully much sooner), gays are afforded every right and freedom everyone else is and are viewed as just another part of American society.

But being told "you can't use that word!" is almost as condescending as being told I can't marry the person I love. Seems remarkably...PC.

quote: can an arab say to an arab friend "yo sandnigger what's up?" without getting a few surprised expressions from onlookers??

No, but so what? If the two arabs involved are fine with it, why should they care if some onlookers are offended? Since when was there a right to not be offended? I personally love seeing white people freeze in terror when a black person around them says "nigga." Guess who used to freeze in terror at that word? Maybe it's a great way of allowing white people to see into the worldview of black people.

	15-06-2002 09:45									#111
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i suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, Boris. I think our hearts are both in the right place, which is good...

honestly, if a black person came up to me and jokingly said 'what's up whitey' I wouldn't be defensive or even offended...as long as you could tell facially and vocally that he was only joking...however, if I did take offense to being called that (which I don't...) i'd say "please don't call me by that" and that would be that...and I'd do the same with a white person.

I also think it's rotten to use the "taste of their own medicine" excuse...i never called a black person a 'nigger'...why should I be made to 'see into the worldview of blackpeople' 50 years ago as if I'm being punished for a crime?

	15-06-2002 09:56									#112
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quote: Originally posted by orange i suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, Boris. I think our hearts are both in the right place, which is good...

I think so.

quote: honestly, if a black person came up to me and jokingly said 'what's up whitey' I wouldn't be defensive or even offended...as long as you could tell facially and vocally that he was only joking...however, if I did take offense to being called that (which I don't...) i'd say "please don't call me by that" and that would be that...and I'd do the same with a white person.

I would hope your reaction would be the same as your reaction to your acquaintances use of the term "sandnigger."

quote: I also think it's rotten to use the "taste of their own medicine" excuse...i never called a black person a 'nigger'...why should I be made to 'see into the worldview of blackpeople' 50 years ago as if I'm being punished for a crime?

Whoa, that's not at all what I was saying. I was just saying that it may be a good thing for a white person to feel a little uncomfortable at the use of the word among blacks, not out of vengeance for something 50 years ago (although I wonder why you say 50, since it was only 3-4 years ago that James Byrd was dragged to death). I meant solely that it will get the white person to possibly think a little about the word, why they're uncomfortable with it, why these young black men seem to be comfortable using it amongst themselves, etc. Hopefully it will open the door to a lot of introspection on racial issues.

And, if the white guy happens to be a racist bigot, well then maybe he will be a little afraid, which I'm okay with, too...

	15-06-2002 20:30									#113
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Orange, I have a question.

Why on Earth would you WANT to say "nigger" or "nigga" or whatever in the first place?

	16-06-2002 01:59									#114
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Guynemer, he doesn't. But he was also saying that blacks shouldn't be able to use the word, either, if he can't.