16-06-2002 05:42									#1
	The ministry of Trade thread Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

The foundation speech
by Spiffor, newly elected Trade minister

Dear citizens of Apolyton,

First, I would like to thank all of you who voted in the Trade advisor election. You have spoken, and put me in charge over my worthy opponent, the Banana. However, as a sign of comprehension towards the other voters, I will consult the Banana everyday, at breakfast time.

As the first minister of trade, I promise you to care for the greatest interests of our nation before my own. The ministry shall work on the deals our empire will eventually have, so that they are the best for our interests.

I will also care that our trade network is efficient, and the ministry will petition the adequate ministers to connect cities, luxuries and resources as soon as needed.

My last promise to you people is : I will listen to your concerns whenever you feel fit to tell them. My services are completely available for all of your questions. As a democratically elected minister, I shall remain near to the citizens ! To this, I will inform you by giving all the internal notes my services should write.

The internal organization of the ministry is as follow :
- the department for domestic trade, whose concern will be to care of our trade network
- the department for foreign trade, whose purpose will be to work out the best manageable deals with the foreigners.
Both these departments will adress you their notes, without keeping them for myself or for the government.

Dear citizens, I am looking forward to work my best for the greatness of our Civilization.
(Apolyton's anthem)

	16-06-2002 05:56									#2
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i think trades not involving resources should be the foreign advisor's job...after all they're more of negotiations than trading, and they're done though the foreign advosor screen!

	16-06-2002 06:07									#3
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A trade not involving resources comes mostly from the minister of foreign affairs : the minister of foreign affairs decide. But the haggling job comes to the minister of trade, who has to get the most money/advantages (terrioty map etc.) from the widely decided trade by the foreign minister.
The ministry of trade is secondary, but it is a job which has to be done, as making the best deal is much micromanagement.

	16-06-2002 07:10									#4
	Re: The ministry of Trade thread Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor The foundation speech by Spiffor, newly elected Trade minister Dear citizens of Apolyton, First, I would like to thank all of you who voted in the Trade advisor election. You have spoken, and put me in charge over my worthy opponent, the Banana. However, as a sign of comprehension towards the other voters, I will consult the Banana everyday, at breakfast time. As the first minister of trade, I promise you to care for the greatest interests of our nation before my own. The ministry shall work on the deals our empire will eventually have, so that they are the best for our interests. I will also care that our trade network is efficient, and the ministry will petition the adequate ministers to connect cities, luxuries and resources as soon as needed. My last promise to you people is : I will listen to your concerns whenever you feel fit to tell them. My services are completely available for all of your questions. As a democratically elected minister, I shall remain near to the citizens ! To this, I will inform you by giving all the internal notes my services should write. The internal organization of the ministry is as follow : - the department for domestic trade, whose concern will be to care of our trade network - the department for foreign trade, whose purpose will be to work out the best manageable deals with the foreigners. Both these departments will adress you their notes, without keeping them for myself or for the government. Dear citizens, I am looking forward to work my best for the greatness of our Civilization.

What will your first action as Trade Advisor be? Do you even know?

Also....Does anyone know if we even have an athem?

	16-06-2002 10:19									#5
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Actually Spiffor, the way the Code of Laws is at now, you only have direct control when gold, luxury, or strategic resources are involved. It stinks I know, but it's the way people had wanted it when they were writting the constitution. Maybe you outta get over there and try to make some suggestions before the thing gets voted on .

I didn't even want to have a Trade minister as I thought it should all just be the foreign affairs minister, but, eh well. Congrats on your victory and enjoy your bananas, just be careful, the medicine men now have a theory that you may become what you eat.

	16-06-2002 18:18									#6
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Tassadar :
As my minister is centred around situation-dictated micromanagement, I won't have any decisions to take before we find foreigners, or before we find resources / luxuries.
But, I will do one thing in preparation : an excel file to keep track of all active trades. In SP games, when you don't feel like micromanaging your trade, you often lose track of your trades, and let deals last 40 or more turns before remembering to renegociate them (of course, the AI won't renegociate them if they match its interests).
Now, as a specialist in matters of foreign trade, I will carefully keep track.

Timeline :
Thanks for the info, but I don't remember the competences of the trade ministry were even discussed. The onl thing I know about my functions come from Gramphos' thread about ministries and their functions (the multiple choice poll where it was decided a ministry of environment was useless).
Could you give me a link where the competences of the ministry of trade were discussed please ? It would be warmly welcome.

	17-06-2002 07:41									#7
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http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...?threadid=52689

See Gramphos and my post for details. Gramphos laid the foundation in his first post and I attempted to clearify it in the Code of Laws. I clearly define the differences between the foreign advisor and trade minister. If you dont like what we have now, we can always change it, just start a poll for amendment and if it's popular it can easily be adjusted.

	17-06-2002 08:24									#8
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Timeline :
Indeed, some precise point of our glorious constitution leave some roomfor improvement.
One of the works of the current ministry of trade will be to work on a viable porject for a merger between the ministry of finance and the ministry of trade, for the sake of efficiency and coherence in monetary politics.
Currently, our newly created institutional bureau hasn't a complete project ready, but a major overhaul of the government organization in matters of economy are in the works. Of course, such a project will have to be decided with the agreement of the finance minister, and above all, the agreement of the people.

	17-06-2002 08:29									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Timeline : Indeed, some precise point of our glorious constitution leave some roomfor improvement. One of the works of the current ministry of trade will be to work on a viable porject for a merger between the ministry of finance and the ministry of trade, for the sake of efficiency and coherence in monetary politics. Currently, our newly created institutional bureau hasn't a complete project ready, but a major overhaul of the government organization in matters of economy are in the works. Of course, such a project will have to be decided with the agreement of the finance minister, and above all, the agreement of the people.

Actually it would probably be far more effecient to merge the minister of trade with the foreign affairs minister, but that would leave you out of job .

	17-06-2002 08:43									#10
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I don't think so, as I imagine the minister of trade as a haggling minister, where money is the concern, or following the wishes of other ministers.
That's why I imagine the trade ministry merged with the other "money ministry", rather than the Foreign advisor, whose diplomatic logic is completely different.

As for my job : I accepted to do this because no one else wanted to do the job. Now that I have taken engagements in front of Apolyton citizens, I won't turn back until the end of my term. But losing my job afterwards really doesn't bother me.

	18-06-2002 04:16									#11
	Remove this text

Official communication. 3950 BC.
- The minitry of trade is officially opened, and will seat in the palace of our glorious capital, Apolyton. From there, our services should work for the interests of our nation.

- The discovery of the Notylopa Jungle up north might be good news for the ministry of trade. Our experts expect the jungle to be rich in tradable goods. The ministry strongly pushes for exploration of the area.


Official communication. 3750 BC. Department of domestic trade
- The workers, placed under Eli's leadership, completed the first road connected to Apolyton. This road, located NW of the Capital, is proper for the transportation of goods, compatible with the norms of the ministry. This first road should be the first step for an integrated trade network.

	26-06-2002 05:20									#12
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Department of Foreign Trade, 2900 BC
- Dyes have been spotted in the newly discovered American territory. The Americans do not use this luxury, and this has a negative impact on the population's mood.

- French are alledged to bring Wines to Paris, but their source has not been discovered yet. Our department estimates the wineyards to be North from Paris. It is currently impossible to tell if the French have several wineyards in their territory or only one.

- An attempt to trade pottery for gold has been made. Our chief negociator lowered American demands to 2 gold per turn + 6 gold lump (contrary to the 2gpt + 13 gold lump initially demanded). However, the cabinet refused this trade unanimously.

- All attempts to trade for Alphabet and Mystcism have been failures because of our partners' refusals.

Edit : minor changes for clarity

Last edited by Spiffor on 26-06-2002 at 05:51

	26-06-2002 05:24									#13
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just a querry.. aren't I supposed to be reporting all and any tech trading? (unless it has resources involved)?

that IS the way the constitution is written

EDIT: oops.. ok.. just read the constitution, you are involved as long as gold/luxury/resource is involved. But still, tech trading IS my field.

but yeah.. i wanna merge next term.. its crazy how much consulting im supposed to do to get some deals done.

	26-06-2002 05:31									#14
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Sorry, I thought the haggling job involving money was mine (ie, lowering 13lump to 6 lump), but decision making was your call with Tass.

	26-06-2002 05:34									#15
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Tass advises on tech trade, but trading the tech isnt his complete field, its my decision in the end.

I can't argue that you are doing your job wherever gold/luxury/resource is concerned. You are completely right there.

But its strange, that a single transaction can be reported from two to three reports.

	26-06-2002 07:26									#16
	Jurisdiction issues Full PM-box? Change here!

I have a question about trade advisor: Since we need certain infrastructure (roads over resources, roads or sea lanes connecting to foreign capitol) does the Trade advisor get any special powers to advise other ministers when the decisions they whish to take directly influence the Ministry of Trade's job? Also, will trade of jey resources, like Iron, Oil, Uranium and Rubber, be the sole decision of the Trade minister, or will the War ministr, foreign ministry and others get a veto on such important trades?

	26-06-2002 07:55									#17
	Increase Your PM Length

The minister of Trade can officially petition the minister of public works to connect cities and trading goods to the trade network. He has, however, no direct power on workers, and the minister of public works can completely ignore those requests if he really wants.

The minister of trade, says the constitution, has all power about trade involving solely gold and goods. But I don't imagine any minister stupid enough to sell oil to future enemies, or to sell any resource without consulting the foreign / military ministers first.

However, I am currently working on a project to clarify things out. People will decide if this project is good or not.

	15-07-2002 22:07									#18
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Ok, at last I translated my excel table of resources into a HTML table. Now, you can know what resources the knon Civs have in one glance ! (sorry, it's very ugly, but I suck at HTML) :

code:


1450 BC

RESOURCES



    
    

        

        
Horses
        
Iron
        
Saltpeter
        
Coal
        
Oil
        
Rubber
        
Aluminium
        
Uranium
    

        
    

        
Apolytonia
        
X
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
Rome
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
Greece
        
X
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
Babylon
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
Germany
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
Russia
        
X
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
China
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
America
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
Japan
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
France
        
X
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
India
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
Persia
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
Aztecs
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
Zululand
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
Iroquois
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
England
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    





LUXURIES


    
    

        

        
Wines
        
Furs
        
Dyes
        
Incense
        
Spices
        
Ivory
        
Silks
        
Gems
    

        
    

        
Apolytonia
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
Rome
        
XXX
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
Greece
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
Babylon
        

        

        

        
X
        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
Germany
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
Russia
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
China
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
America
        

        

        
XX
        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
Japan
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
France
        
X
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
India
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
Persia
        

        

        

        
X
        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
Aztecs
        
XX
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
Zululand
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
Iroquois
        

        

        

        

        
X
        

        

        

    

    
    

        
England
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

        

Last edited by Spiffor on 17-07-2002 at 05:12

	16-07-2002 13:58									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

MY EYES! MY EYES!

	17-07-2002 02:49									#20
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1450 BC

Possible trades involving gold :

Greeks :
World map for World map + 220 gold + 5 gpt
MapMaking for World Map + 168 gold
MapMaking for 210 gold

Aztecs :
nil

French :
World Map for World map + 192 gold
MapMaking for World map + 130 gold
MapMaking for 195 gold

Germans :
World Map : impossible
MapMaking for World map + 174 gold
MapMaking for 218 gold

Iroquois : nil

America :
World Map for World Map + 228 gold + 6 gpt
MapMaking for World Map + 171 gold
MapMaking for 210 gold

Rome :
WorldMap : impossible
MapMaking for World Map + 207 gold
MapMaking for 218 gold

England :
World Map for World Map + 223 gold + 3 gpt
MapMaking for World Map + 173 gold
MapMaking for 210 gold

Russia :
nil

Babylon :
nil

Persia : nil

However, the "nil" civilizations will have maps available once we get mapmaking. We could trade our world map for Russia's and Iroquois'(they are expansionistic, and thus must have interetsing maps). With Persians and Babylonians, we could trade their maps for mathematics.

My trading suggestion is as follows :
- buy MapMaking from the Greeks for 210 gold (we don't want to give an edge to our future French enemies)
- trade world maps with Russia and with Iroquois. I doubt they already know the map of everybody, since they don't have money to buy all maps
- sell mathematics to the Persians and Babylonians for their maps
- buy world map from the Greeks, buy paying a price if we have to (even gpt)
- sell this extended world map to Romans and Americans if they have money, before the Greeks do.

	17-07-2002 03:18									#21
	Remove this text

i refuse to support any plan that reveals our map at this stage of the game.

if that is an island we see, we will be the soul colonizers of it. the second the AI sees it, they'll go there with their galleys that dont sink. we should keep it for ourselves.

	17-07-2002 03:22									#22
	Got spare money?

and you should note after you give away your map, the value of it goes down.

	17-07-2002 03:26									#23
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Then we can get MapMaking from the Greeks for 5gpt and 120 gold. This trade will give us enough lump gold to pay for some maps (hopefully)
However, without trading our map, we'll never have enough money to get the maps of everyone.

Last thing we could do is forgetting mapmaking for now, and buy the Greek map for 7 gpt + 226 gold. After all, they must have gathered tons of info for such a price.

But I still think we could trade maps anyways. In my past Civ3 experience, I came to the strong belief that the AI knows the map beforehand (how many times did I see foreign galleys going exactly towards another shore they couldn't see, in my mod where galleys have more moves ?)

	17-07-2002 03:27									#24
	Put an end to popups!

I agree with uber, we really shouldn't give our map away yet, lets at least until we see if that island can be useful
Aggie

	17-07-2002 03:30									#25
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX i refuse to support any plan that reveals our map at this stage of the game. if that is an island we see, we will be the soul colonizers of it. the second the AI sees it, they'll go there with their galleys that dont sink. we should keep it for ourselves.

Food for thought.
What is the likelihood another civ has spotted the (island)? How long would we guess we have before someone beats us to it? We are in the middle of a military buildup that (I assume) we do not want to postpone. What are the odds this land remains undetected long enough for us to exploit it?

	17-07-2002 03:36									#26
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Another thought:
If this is rich land, we should be in a good position to exert cultural pull over it, even if we find ourselves among company by the time we manage to plant a city there. Particularly if we keep our capital at the southern tip of the penninsula (unlikely, perhaps, but an option to consider if: 1) there is rich land down there; and 2) our expansion northward gets checked by military setbacks.

	17-07-2002 03:54									#27
	Full PM-box? Change here!

May I suggest we do the trades that don't involve the world map. Then perhaps consider our territory map. It is soooo much better talking about civ instead of disputed votes.
Aggie

	17-07-2002 04:10									#28
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Sorry, but as long as we don't trade for mapmaking, I can't work on any deal like "your world map for my territory map".

Maybe the better deal would be not to trade our world map with the Persians and French, as they're the ones most likely to settle the isle. The others are too far away and have something else to do with their settlers.

	17-07-2002 04:20									#29
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I think I might have been unclear, what i meant was that we do the trades for map making and then the world map buy trades. Here is how it now is;

buy MapMaking from the Greeks for 210 gold (we don't want to give an edge to our future French enemies)
- trade world maps with Russia and with Iroquois. I doubt they already know the map of everybody, since they don't have money to buy all maps
- sell mathematics to the Persians and Babylonians for their maps
- buy world map from the Greeks, buy paying a price if we have to (even gpt)
- sell this extended world map to Romans and Americans if they have money, before the Greeks do.

Lets change to
buy MapMaking from the Greeks for 210 gold (we don't want to give an edge to our future French enemies)
-
- sell mathematics to the Persians and Babylonians for their maps
- buy world map from the Greeks, buy paying a price if we have to (even gpt)
-

Then we can see what deals our territory maps can get us, since we have a small territory that is already mostly known.
Aggie

	17-07-2002 04:38									#30
	Inflate your Upload Space

Aggie : your idea is interesting.
We don't have enough money to buy the map of the Greeks after buying mapmaking for money only (to the French, who make a discount)
However, we can trade Russia's map for Mapmaking, 4gpt and 23 gold
Aztecs' map for MapMaking, 5gpt and 25 gold
Babylon's map for Mapmaking, Mathematics and 16 gold
Iroquois' map for Mapmaking, 3 gpt and 30 gold
Persia's map for Mapmaking.

These deals don't take tech devaluation into account, and we'll have to throw even more money in, once we sell mapmaking once. We'll have some maps, but not all of them.
The only "free" map (in terms of money) would be the Persian one, which only requires mapmaking. However, Persia will not trade its map for mathematics alone.

(note : to design this project, I had to play ahead by buying MapMaking to the French for 195 gold. I did not accept any deals involving maps. thus, I don't have more geographical knowledge than any of you)