16-06-2002 22:33									#1
	AI and slightly modded units - good news Support Apolyton

I have now almost finished a game which I played with something new to my mod, slight changed to the Modern Age units. Took me several games, actually, to get to the period where this would matter.

Three most important changes affect these units:

Cruise Missile - increased bombard range to 4, slightly increased bombard power, added Precision Strike ability (a-la real life). Battleships can carry 2 Cruisse Missiles.

Marine - A/D/M is now 12/8/1, and the Marine has 2 extra HP, that is, a regular one has 5 already.

Paatrooper - A/D/M is 10/8/1, range increased. Patatoopers also get 2 extra HP, like the Marine, to make it possible to hang out in the field with those. A 8 defender with extra HP can be quite mean.

So, in the late Industrial Age, I went to Marines before Tanks, and made heavy use of them as field fighters. In the Modern Age, I had a nice missile defense system set up, with quite some Cruise Missiles, and most of my Battleships carrying one, too.

And, in late Industrial and Modern Ages wars started coming en masse. I was very surprised to see the Greeks deliver a Transport full of Marines to the Roman coast and make an amphibious assault, also later using those Marines in ground combat.

As I kept checking, Alexander had about half a dozen Paratroopers, too (I've never seen the AI build any before), and I've even once saw them actually make an airdrop.

Most pleasing of all, was the AI use of Cruise Missiles. Again, I didn't see the AI use those much, but when I invaded the Aztecs with some Modern Armor, Montezuma rained about 10 Cruise Missiles, killing 8 Modern Armor (I said I made them powerful!).

Let me summarize this: the AI does use units it otherwise wouldn't if they're toned up significantly. Most people don't use the Marines, Cruise Missiles and Paratroopers as they are out of the box either, so the AI doesn't.

I have also powered the subs up, and saw some increase in AI sub tactics, too.

Very pleased .

	16-06-2002 23:00									#2
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Congratulations on your success with the "elite" infantries! Did you also adjust their production costs?

The hidden power of Cruise Missiles (un-modded, even) is that if you shoot them at a city, they hit the combatants. Makes them quite valuable if you want to keep a city/metro which you hope hasn't been drafted and oppressed to the hilt.

(Or have I just been extra lucky with cruise missiles??)

	16-06-2002 23:09									#3
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No, I didn't change any production costs. The Marine already costs the same as Tank, but now it's adequate.

Hmm, haven't used Cruise Missiles as-is before much, especially on cities. But with the weak power and short range, it wasn't much of a use.

	16-06-2002 23:57									#4
	Re: AI and slightly modded units - good news Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Solver I was very surprised to see the Greeks deliver a Transport full of Marines to the Roman coast and make an amphibious assault, also later using those Marines in ground combat.

I am a fan of marines, but have never seen the AI use them in an amphibious assault (have seen them used plenty of times in place of a tank when AI has no oil).

I have always wanted to stimulate the AI to atack amphibiously (so at least the threat is there!), but haven't really been successful with my (much slighter) mods. Great job! and thanks for the info. I may make some similar changes just to see some AI amphibious assaults.

Catt

	16-06-2002 23:59									#5
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Glad to encourage some people to try what I've modded .

	17-06-2002 03:44									#6
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Solver, is adding 2 HPs not unbalancing to the game? I agree Marines do not have the same chance of promotions, as they're only used once (or twice), but making elites out of them no matter where they're built, isn't that too much?

Question in between: did any of your elite marines gave a GL, and if so where did it appear (i.e. on the transport)?

Further, if you managed to get the AIs to use marines and paratroopers, either the stats should be changed in the next patch, or some incentive should be given so that the AI would try it more. It would bring some much needed diversity in the AI, apparantly without any new coding (the routines for amphibious assault are clearly present).

DeepO

	17-06-2002 03:53									#7
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hi ,

well , Solver that is good news , ...

care to post a SAV(e) , ....

have a nice day / night

	17-06-2002 07:08									#8
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I think I remember Vel saying something about how the AI get evil if you make a ground unit with hidden nationality. Any comments on this?

	17-06-2002 07:26									#9
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Solver, is adding 2 HPs not unbalancing to the game? I agree Marines do not have the same chance of promotions, as they're only used once (or twice), but making elites out of them no matter where they're built, isn't that too much?

DeepO - I believe you can give specific unit classes a base number of hitpoints without changing their status from regular, veteran, etc. In other words, giving marines a 5 HP base means you will create a 5 HP regular marine (which can be promoted to a 6 HP veteran and 7 HP elite). There is no shortcut to creating elite units without combat. Could be wrong, but this is what I recall from the editor.

Catt

	17-06-2002 13:33									#10
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Catt says right, it's just that my Regular marines have 5 HP, and get 6 HP when promoted to Veteran. The two leaders I generated from my Elite, 7 HP marines were when they were already on ground.

Hmm, I have a SAV file lying somewhere near, it is from that game, but not for the right situation . I can post the bic, though, will be useful with the "June patch", as you will then easily see what I've done.

Deep O - the AI surely uses some kind of a unit evaluation formula to determine if it's worth using. No surprise than, with Tanks available, the Marine wasn't too high on the AI priority list. However, with boosted stats, AI gave it enough consideration, and then came the extra bonus due to the amphibious flag, which made the AI decide in favor of Marines.

BTW, I believe there should be another Modern unit, like Drop Mech, that is, a mech unit executing airdrops, something with stats a bit lower than a Mech Inf.

	17-06-2002 21:50									#11
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I've been toying with the unit stats, in order to give every unit a place in the game myself.

Gave Nuclear sub ability to bombard- It got used in a big way by the AI - But had no real way to couter it being as it was a real pain to find the subs that were bombarding me - So I gave Helicopters the ability to see subs. Worked well.

I spead up all naval unit, except for the galley. Made the use of naval warfare and amphidious assaults more usable rather than taking ten years to reach your target drop area.

Tanks Light Armor so that they could not be upgraded, instead I made them as a foot unit so it could be air dropped.

Gave workers a movement of 2 to speed them up a bit making blitzkrieg tactics more likely to work well.
I am however thinking of using your Idea with beefing up the Marines, but not with HP. And using Cruise missiles rather than Bombard in the subs.

	17-06-2002 21:54									#12
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quote: Originally posted by FrantzX I think I remember Vel saying something about how the AI get evil if you make a ground unit with hidden nationality. Any comments on this?

I am interested to see what the AI would do with it make it A Special Forces unit or something, Maybe even give it the invisible qualities of a sub. But definitely make it expensive.

	17-06-2002 21:55									#13
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Intereting ideas, but the Worker movement of 2 is somewhat too strong for me. That's 6 tiles once there's a road, it should be increasing all the work speed dramatically.

	17-06-2002 22:35									#14
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The point with the worker is that it basically makes it equal to the engineer in CIV 2

	17-06-2002 23:07									#15
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Engineer in Civ 2 came pretty late, though.

	17-06-2002 23:21									#16
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I've been playing "standard rules" for some time now, but previously experimented with mods and came up with something I liked and, like Solver's experiment, something that the AI used. Similar to Solver, I modded BBs and Aegis Cruisers to carry 1 and 2 cruise missles each, respectively (nothing but cruise missles). Nuclear subs carried 4 missles (nukes or cruise missles). Cruise missles had a range of 4. Regular subs carried 4 foot units (but not missles). Marines and paratroopers had slightly higher A/D stats, 9.7 and 7.9, respectively. Helicopter carried 4 foot units.

Results: AI used nuclear subs to carry cruise missles (and generally used cruise missles more than without the mod). Still didn't see any marine amphib assaults or helicoptered pts, but did see airdropped pts (i.e., launched from a city with an airport). Perhaps most interesting -- added a real wrinkle to the game -- was the AI wasn't shy about using subs to secretly land raiding parties of 4 infantry into my core empire -- this can be quite a surprise when you've left some cities totally undefended!

Was hoping to see the AI use several subs to carry marines to a coastal city and attack amphibiously, but didn't happen -- maybe with Solver's increased marine strength.

Catt

	17-06-2002 23:31									#17
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quote: Originally posted by FrantzX I think I remember Vel saying something about how the AI get evil if you make a ground unit with hidden nationality. Any comments on this?

There are a number of old threads about this. I think that the consensus was that AI did use them quite well, but humans could use them better than the AI (of course) which is a little unbalancing. I stopped using them for that reason but they're fun for a while.

	17-06-2002 23:45									#18
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hi ,

Solver , can you make the AI start with ceratin units , just to see what he does with them , ...

some people have tried to put new units in , surpise , the AI trew them out , ...

have a nice day

	18-06-2002 00:24									#19
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Panag, no.

Catt - I forgot to mention Helicopters, too! They carry 4 units for me now, and I saw the AI build them, didn't see it use them, though. But that's a lesser changed compared to the others.

	18-06-2002 00:45									#20
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quote: Originally posted by FrantzX I think I remember Vel saying something about how the AI get evil if you make a ground unit with hidden nationality. Any comments on this?

hi ,

one good thing is to make the explorer "hidden" , however there is a catch , the AI seems to know where he is coming from , the AI can contact your civ , when he had no contact with you before , true "hidden nationalty" , .......so in fact when you attack the AI knows who does so , and after a while gets less happy about you , ...

have a nice day

	18-06-2002 04:05									#21
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Aha, 5HP regulars, thanks! Which should mean 6HP marines, as I can't imagine you build units without barracks. Whow, that's a lot of power, no wonder the AI uses them

I find it very interesting to see that the AI more or less uses it like it is intended, so these routines are definately there. I wonder why Soren didn't include an additional, tweakable parameter which would give amphibious assault an extra reward, so the AI uses them from time to time, even unmodded. As it is now, combat is too linear. ADMs of marines shouldn't be compared on a ADM basis with infs.
And, even if he specifically has said that the AIs are all one kind of blend to make a more balanced AI, instead of all with different accents, such a UseMarinesMoreOften parameter could be changed with different AI personalities.

Does the AI also uses marines with normal, 3HP units? Probably not...

The reason why I don't mod the units is because I find it very tricky to make something balancing. Like the 2 move workers, of course I'd like it, but it would be too much. And sorry to have this negative note to an excellent thread, but somehow I feel like your marines are too powerful because you love the little guys

DeepO

	18-06-2002 04:55									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Solver Panag, no. Catt - I forgot to mention Helicopters, too! They carry 4 units for me now, and I saw the AI build them, didn't see it use them, though. But that's a lesser changed compared to the others.

hi ,

, 4 is a bit much , 2 works out fine , together with a higher cost .

have a nice day

	18-06-2002 07:56									#23
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quote: Originally posted by FrantzX I think I remember Vel saying something about how the AI get evil if you make a ground unit with hidden nationality. Any comments on this?

Yes, that certainly can be the case. I've done that in my game, and sometimes it works to well. I'll end up with wave after wave of those rascals occasionaly. The AI seems to take an "eye for an eye" approach with them. The more I use them, the more of them it builds. I had a look at India's empire once when we still that cheat, and at least 2/3 of his cities were building them. And he had a sizable empire at the time. I would have had a steady stream of them attacking me for quite sometime to come.

	18-06-2002 08:02									#24
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quote: Originally posted by panag hi , one good thing is to make the explorer "hidden" , however there is a catch , the AI seems to know where he is coming from , the AI can contact your civ , when he had no contact with you before , true "hidden nationalty" , .......so in fact when you attack the AI knows who does so , and after a while gets less happy about you , ... have a nice day

Not a good idea, I tried it. What's happens with 0 units that are hidden is they become invincible. The AI can't attack them or do anything to them. In fact, I've seen an AI unit on the same square as the Explorer, just like stacking my own units. I could walk around his entire empire, pillaging every single improvement on his land, and it wouldn't be able to do a thing to stop me. Way to much power, unless of course you like to win the easy way.

PS At least that was the case with patch 1.17. They may have fixed that since then, I'm not sure.

	18-06-2002 08:13									#25
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH There are a number of old threads about this. I think that the consensus was that AI did use them quite well, but humans could use them better than the AI (of course) which is a little unbalancing. I stopped using them for that reason but they're fun for a while.

It's that way with all units in the game though. Just becasue I can utilize my Artillery pieces better than the AI, does that mean they should be removed from the game as well? I've added them to my game, and I like them. They certainly keep me on my toes, and I've even lost a few cities to them. Mind you I always reload the game when that happens, and grumble while I'm doing it. I don't like them that much.

	18-06-2002 15:43									#26
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Did you notice that Ptw might have one of these types of units? They said they were playtesting a hidden nationality "partisan".

	18-06-2002 15:53									#27
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It's called a Guerilla. They've already agreed that it will be a weaker infantry, and want to Hide Nationality for it now, but are checking if the AI can handle it.

Admittedly, I doubt it's a good idea. I fear that Cold War will be too easy then - mass Guerillas and send them sitting on resources and pillaging without any diplomatic casualities.

	18-06-2002 17:49									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Solver It's called a Guerilla. They've already agreed that it will be a weaker infantry, and want to Hide Nationality for it now, but are checking if the AI can handle it. Admittedly, I doubt it's a good idea. I fear that Cold War will be too easy then - mass Guerillas and send them sitting on resources and pillaging without any diplomatic casualities.

hi ,

maybe lethal air bombardment would fix that a bit , ...

have a nice day

	18-06-2002 17:59									#29
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Maybe yes. But I still feel that this would be one of things overpowered a bit in hands of a human.

	18-06-2002 18:10									#30
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Yeah, I agree it is too overpowered for human players. I used them in a mod of mine. I wound up conquering alot of AI cities without having to declare war and with out retaliation from the AI.

It may work well against human players though, but it has to be an expensive unit. And maybe give it a bombard range of one and Attack of 1 so it can't be used to take cities unless they are unmanned.