17-06-2002 02:58									#31
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If I were registered for Spanish elections I would almost always vote for the Partido Popular... a conservative party...

http://www.pp.es

	17-06-2002 03:09									#32
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quote: Originally posted by *End Is Forever* Yes, but it's easy for Lincoln (incorrectly) to dismiss that as a view of someone on the far-left. Although come to think of it, he probably thinks I'm on the hard left myself... which just shows how extreme-right and loony the Republican Party actually is.

I'm not far-left. I'm pro-capitalism, I just believe it needs to be limited. Monopolies are not capitalist.

	17-06-2002 03:11									#33
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quote: Originally posted by *End Is Forever* Yes, but it's easy for Lincoln (incorrectly) to dismiss that as a view of someone on the far-left. Although come to think of it, he probably thinks I'm on the hard left myself... which just shows how extreme-right and loony the Republican Party actually is.

Well let's see here. First, I do not dismiss that as a view from someone on the far left. And second, I am not a Republican (loony or otherwise). Oh well you only missed two out of two.

	17-06-2002 03:12									#34
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You're gay. That makes you far-left as far as bigoted Republicans go.

	17-06-2002 03:13									#35
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quote: Originally posted by red_jon I'm not far-left. I'm pro-capitalism, I just believe it needs to be limited. Monopolies are not capitalist.

Umm actually it depends... if monopolies are state owned they certainly are not capitalistic. But if they are private they certainly are capitalistic. But they are not efficient. The same goes with oligopolies for those econ nuts who know what I am talking about.

	17-06-2002 03:13									#36
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oops

	17-06-2002 03:14									#37
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Fair enough Lincoln. I do apologise for calling you a Republican. It's a pretty big insult, and I apologise for any offence called.

	17-06-2002 03:15									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Umm actually it depends... if monopolies are state owned they certainly are not capitalistic. But if they are private they certainly are capitalistic. But they are not efficient. The same goes with oligopolies for those econ nuts who know what I am talking about.

But surely capitalism is about market competition. With monopolies the competition obviously isn't there, so it may as well be state-owned.

	17-06-2002 03:15									#39
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Mai pen rai (it is nothing)

	17-06-2002 03:18									#40
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quote: Originally posted by *End Is Forever* You're gay. That makes you far-left as far as bigoted Republicans go.

What a brilliant cross-post

	17-06-2002 03:20									#41
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quote: Originally posted by red_jon But surely capitalism is about market competition. With monopolies the competition obviously isn't there, so it may as well be state-owned.

Technically. That is why private monopolies are so inefficient unless not subsidized by the state. And Microsoft isn't a monopoly, if it was there wouldn't be any lawsuits. The OS market is an uncollusive oligopoly.

The water and electric companies are monopolies. If they weren't and weren't subsidized by the state, horrendous prices would be charged.

	17-06-2002 03:34									#42
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quote: Originally posted by red_jon Well it has to be remembered that the American Democrats would be the equivalent of a right-wing party in Europe. European conservatives can be more liberal than the Democrat Party.

* Zealot watches RJ shooting his own foot

Hehe. RJ, it's the Republican party who are the conservatives, not the Democrats.
Funny how no american noticed this yet. Could it be that no one pays attention to what red_jon says?
Ok ok, this one was too mean. I'm just kidding anyway!

	17-06-2002 03:36									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Zealot * Zealot watches RJ shooting his own foot Hehe. RJ, it's the Republican party who are the conservatives, not the Democrats. Funny how no american noticed this yet. Could it be that no one pays attention to what red_jon says? Ok ok, this one was too mean. I'm just kidding anyway!

I know. That's the point I was making, that the US liberals were more right-wing than some European conservatives.

What was that about shooting feet?

	17-06-2002 03:48									#44
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Excuse me but when you say "Well it has to be remembered that the American Democrats would be the equivalent of a right-wing party in Europe.", even if you were being sarcastic, in where would you position the Republicans? Far right?

We can't possibly consider your sentence as logically true!

	17-06-2002 06:44									#45
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quote: Originally posted by red_jon I know. That's the point I was making, that the US liberals were more right-wing than some European conservatives. What was that about shooting feet?

The perceptions that US liberals are right-wing is brought about because they can't really practice what they want. Centrist public opinion doesn't allow them (same for Conservatives). They are not right wing.

	17-06-2002 07:03									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat Is that you in your avatar? You're purty

Yes, it is. You can call me Nom Anor. Now give us a kiss!

	17-06-2002 07:14									#47
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Is it true that if a cournty is either predominantly left-wing or right-wing that it will always fly around in circles?

	17-06-2002 12:36									#48
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Europe, I believe, is still suffering from WWII. While it might have minor oscillations about a center, that center is well to the left of the United States. I attribute this to a severe reaction Europe's fascism in the mid 20th century.

We may now be seeing a true resetting of European politics back to the center, and by that I mean the US center.

	17-06-2002 12:40									#49
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Nice overlooking of the preceding 100 years of social and liberal tradition there, Ned....

	17-06-2002 13:09									#50
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Apart from the different political spectrums, there's another difference between US and euro politics.

Every ten years or so, we kick out the ruling party as a matter of political hygiene. If both big parties try to glue themselves to power, we punish both of them until they quit (Austria's big coalition, France's cohabitation). While the US is permanently living in a big coalition ripe with corruption - it is absolutely puzzling that no opposition arises. The only recent exception was Perot, and he used shitloads of money....

	17-06-2002 13:18									#51
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That's explained by the fundamental voter apathy in the US. Even with two choices it's hard enough for them to make up their minds...

Plus their checks and balances are so effective that their government has had 226 years of stalemate...

	17-06-2002 13:43									#52
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There was a lot more political mobility in the US in the 19th century, or the first half of the 20th century. I'd also say that "stalemate" is partial - it usually means that neither radical policies nor compromises on the merit pass, but compromises based on pork-addition.

	17-06-2002 14:00									#53
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Don't mind me; I'm just trolling...

	17-06-2002 14:03									#54
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Sadly enough, given the state of US politics, it is hard to tell....

	17-06-2002 14:21									#55
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I personally think the third way is far from the saviour of the left, and rather what got us into this mess in the first place. But hey.

At least Sweden is heading for a huge centre-left majority in this next election... Mostly due to having such strong social movements that right-wing extremists haven't been able to gain a permanent foothold.

	17-06-2002 14:58									#56
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red jon,

quote: I'm pro-capitalism, I just believe it needs to be limited. Monopolies are not capitalist. But surely capitalism is about market competition. With monopolies the competition obviously isn't there, so it may as well be state-owned.

There are times when monopolies are in the best interests of the nation. Can you think of an example?

	17-06-2002 18:29									#57
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In 1983, the declarations in the British media were "The Left is dead". Thatcher had won a landslide victory- the Labour party was horribly split and in desperate trouble, while the Liberals/Social Democrats alliance looked stillborn. It was hailed as the death of post-war consensus politics and a sea-change in British politics towards the right. We were told the the future would be variations on Thatcherism.

In 1997, the declarations were "The Right is dead". Labour had turned away from the left-wing approaches of the early 80's and grabbed the centre ground in a landslide victory. The Tories were horribly split over economic stances and over the EU and were brutally punished again in 2001. Now the Tories are firmly going for a consensus approach not a million miles away from their stance in the pre-Thatcher years.

So now the Left is dead again, is it? Well Labour are still in power, the Liberals have three times as many seats as they did 6 years ago and the Tories, even though they are playing the media game for all they're worth, still have the potential to hit the self-destruct button over Europe. They're also blessed with a leader who (to paraphrase Orwell) couldn't even be dignified with the title of "stuffed shirt". He's just a hole in the air.

The next election will be a close-run thing and there's certainly a chance that the Tories may be elected on a "cuddly conservatism" ticket, but that scarcely a sign of a shift to the right in the political spectrum. Viewed agaist the context of the last 25 years, a different story emerges, and it's not a new one.

	17-06-2002 18:53									#58
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse That's explained by the fundamental voter apathy in the US. Even with two choices it's hard enough for them to make up their minds... Plus their checks and balances are so effective that their government has had 226 years of stalemate...

We like stalemate over here. Our politicians cannot do as much damage when they are in gridlock.

	17-06-2002 18:59									#59
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Er, with all due respect Trappist, who gives a f*ck about britain?

	17-06-2002 19:07									#60
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Brits