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Ned
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of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Ron Jeremy
Nice overlooking of the preceding 100 years of social and liberal tradition there, Ned.... |
Perhaps, Ron, the rise to power of the facists was a reaction to the victory of the left, particularly the communists in Russia.
In other words, the left - right swing of the political pendulum in Europe became extremely dramatic in first half of the twentieth century. That pendulum still swings, but to less extremes than 50 years ago. However the degree of the pendulum's swing was far greater in Europe than in the United States during the same period. I attribute that to the success of the communists and facists in actually gaining power in Europe.
Socialists have had the upper hand in most of Europe since WWII. This seems to be a direct result of discrediting the right as a result of that war. Rightist thinking has been largely "unthinkable" in Europe.
But as time goes on, the right seems to be making a real comeback. The fact that Thatcher actually gained power in the UK has moved the center of UK politics to the right, so that today, the UK, even lead by Labour, is more conservative that the rest of Europe.
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Bereta_Eder
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besides europe's long social welfare tradition (how ever modest it is it is huge compared to the US) will simply not go away.
nor will the ideology of the left which is again unique compared to the US politics.
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Bereta_Eder
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for many many years after WW2 in most european countries the right wing was in power constantly, heavily sponsored by the US by both legal and illegal means.
Greece's first left wing government was in the '80s for example (and has been in power ever since with a small exception of 3 years)
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Roland
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Auf'm Jahrmarkt :(
May 1999
time: 06:20
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Imran:
"We Americans don't like our government to try to do too much. Stalemate is good, that was the government can't get more things done that make it intrude into our lives."
Only that it doesn't work that way any longer. Instead of proposal X simply going to the dustbin, you get half of proposal X plus a load of pork. And the vast majority of dems and reps have yet to find a police state measure they didn't like.
Ned:
"Socialists have had the upper hand in most of Europe since WWII."
Please, before you try ro make some conclusions, get some reasing on the facts. Apart from distinctions between socialists and social democrats, the facts don't support this "upper hand" theory - let's just look at the 5 biggest countries:
Britain had permamnent changes (dont know the years by heart), but the longest party rule was conservative: 1979-1997.
Germany:
Cons 1949-1966
Cons/Soc 1966-1969
Soc/Lib 1969-1982
Cons/Lib 1982-1998
Soc/Green 1998-
France had some murky coalitions in the IVth republic; then from 1958-1981 they had a cons president, 1981-1995 a socialist, and 1995-2007 at least a cons again.
In Italy, the communists were in opposition until the early 90s, and the "socialists" especially under Craxi were a junior partner in the various DC governments.
Spain was Franco's fascist toyland into the 1970s. Then you had a cons governemnt, and the soc from 1982-1997 IIRC, now cons again.
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Ned
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of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:20
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Ron, It seems to me that the US and GB are virtually on the same page politically. I assume this is becuase both Blair and Bush have moved to the center of their respective nations politics.
But, Ron, my thesis was that the European center since WWII has generally been to the left of the US center. The reason for this, I believe, is that the extreme right was all but eliminated from European politics, while the extreme left was not.
I also beleive that the election of Thatcher and Reagan moved the centers of UK and US politics to the right.
Again, showing that there were both conservative and liberal governments in Europe does not mean that what I am saying here is incorrect. There are oscillations in politics, but the oscillation is about a center. It is my perception that the center of European politics has largely been to the left of the US center since WWII.
Also, you might want to comment on my point about the extreme politics of Europe in the first half of the last century. Nothing like that has every occured in the US.
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Sikander
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Boulder, Colorado, United Snakes of America
Jan 2000
time: 22:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Roland
Apart from the different political spectrums, there's another difference between US and euro politics.
Every ten years or so, we kick out the ruling party as a matter of political hygiene. If both big parties try to glue themselves to power, we punish both of them until they quit (Austria's big coalition, France's cohabitation). While the US is permanently living in a big coalition ripe with corruption - it is absolutely puzzling that no opposition arises. The only recent exception was Perot, and he used shitloads of money.... |
You are making an error if you think the "divided government" that has been predominant in the U.S. for the past several decades is anything like a coalition in a parliementary style government. The largest immediate difference is that there is absolutely no need to agree on anything in order for the government to function, much less to agree to share power in a cooperative fashion. It also makes corruption a strange proposition. Only political elements with enough money / power to bribe both of the main parties with large sums of money have a hope of getting away with something. Everyone else is picked on by the party that is not receiving it's "share" of the juice. This system of government reduces the power of the legislative branch in favor of the executive, as the executive gets to do what it wants regardless, while the legislative branch is unable to do much of anything unless it is wildly popular, or there is a mother of a backroom deal made.
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17-06-2002 20:40
. Which also happens to be a good thing. We Americans don't like our government to try to do too much. Stalemate is good, that was the government can't get more things done that make it intrude into our lives.
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