Apolyton Archive  |  Preserved copy of the Apolyton Civilization Site and its forums as they stood in September 2005. Read-only; nothing here can be posted to or replied to.  |  Forum index |  About this archive |  The 1998–2001 UBB forums
Today on Apolyton WARDELL INTERVIEW PROMO A.C.S. HISTORY CHAPTER 4 GET CIV4 /w FREE PLUS! A.C.S. PHOTO GALLERY GET A.O.M. V1.1
Apolyton Civilization Forums
main| civ2| civ3| civ4| smac| ctp2| ron| moo3| galciv| galciv2| alt| about|
ApolytonPLUS | register | search | faq | new posts | pm (-/-) | upload | members
hall of fame new! | civgroups | civgroups news | interviews | the column | radio | chat | directory | news | store | PLUS
Apolyton Civilization Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.0.3 Apolyton Civilization Forums > Miscellaneous > Archive > Off-Topic-Archive > Europeans Voters Turn Against Left
Show a Printable Version | Email This Page to Someone! | Receive updates to this thread | Report this to Apolyton news!

bottom of page
  
Author
Thread   
Pages (3): [ 1   2   3   ]
< Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
Lincoln is offline Lincoln
King
TN
Jul 2000
time: 05:20
  Old Post 17-06-2002 00:48 Visit Lincoln's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#1 Report this post to a moderator
Europeans Voters Turn Against Left Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

L O N D O N, June 16 — Left-leaning governments across Europe are being kicked out by voters worried about ailing economies, crime, illegal migrants and a fear that traditional policies of state control don't work.

Europeans are turning to conservative, and even far-right parties, for tough economic reforms and law-and-order policies. Many see the left as out of step with ordinary people.

Left-of-center governments have fallen in Italy, Norway, Denmark and the Netherlands. France's Socialists lost power in Sunday's parliamentary elections, according to exit polls, while Germany's once popular Social Democratic government is the underdog in September's elections.

In the greatest shock, Prime Minister Lionel Jospin of the Socialist Party was knocked out of France's presidential elections this spring and resigned. Left-wing voters found themselves having to vote for conservative incumbent Jacques Chirac to ensure the defeat of far-right candidate Jean Marie Le Pen in the second round.

It is a far cry from the 1990s, when the left swept to office across Europe and ecstatic supporters talked of decades in power. The left believed it had the answers for post-Cold War Europe in a globalized economy - a blend of capitalism and traditional left-wing social policies to protect workers and fund generous welfare programs.

There was also a strong belief that the left would speed up integration of the European Union, turning it into a 15-nation power to rival, even eclipse, the United States.

Reality proved to be very different.

Most of the governments were coalitions of left and centrist parties, constantly weakened by internal disagreements that often hampered efforts to cut chronic unemployment and make their economies more competitive in the global market. Some governments had to curb welfare programs or, when faced with powerful lobbies such as trade unions, to drop needed reforms to fix ailing economies.

"Today, the main issue in Europe is implementing reforms. Center-left leaders know, but sometimes they have a coalition behind them that doesn't leave them room to do it," said Sergio Romano, an Italian analyst.

The left has been hit by a pervasive sense among voters that governments are more a problem than a solution. Some politicians say voters blame whatever government is in power and that whoever replaces the left will be booted out after a term or two in what is a revolving-door system.

But perhaps more than any other factor, the left has failed to tackle key law-and-order issues worrying many voters, especially illegal immigration and crime. Rightly or wrong, many voters link the two and feel threatened in their own homes.

A growing number of Europeans are worried or feel threatened by the influx of hundreds of thousands of newcomers, legal and illegal, from the Middle East, Asia and Africa. Even in traditionally tolerant nations like the Netherlands and Denmark, populist outsider parties have made strong gains by capitalizing on fear of large ethnic minorities that show little sign of integrating.

Peter Mandelson, a former British minister, said the left lost touch with middle-of-the-road voters that having long preached racial tolerance and welcomed immigrants, it has trouble even discussing such issues meaningfully, let alone coming up with policies.

"What recent electoral experiences show is that center-left parties lose where they are out of touch and refuse to face up to tough issues that are 'cultural' rather than ideological," he wrote in The Times newspaper.

Voters think right-wing parties are better at coming up with tough policies to tackle illegal immigration and other problems, said Romano. "The right does a better job at giving public opinion the feeling that the problem is under control," he said.

Some analysts say conservative parties also don't have solutions and that is why more and more voters are turning to anti-immigrant firebrands such as Le Pen in France, Joerg Haider in Austria, and Pym Fortuyn in Holland, whose party did well in parliamentary elections a month ago even though he was assassinated days earlier.

The far right will grow stronger if voters continue to believe the mainstream parties don't care about them, analysts say.

"Parties arise that can't be ideologically pinned down," said Dietmar Herz, an analyst at Erfurt University in Germany.

"They take up issues loaded with resentment - immigration, asylum seekers, integration of foreigners and disgust with politics."




------------------------------------

Well this might be something to argue about...

Last edited by Lincoln on 17-06-2002 at 00:58

Immortal Wombat is offline Immortal Wombat
Prince
in perpetuity
Dec 2000
time: 05:20
  Old Post 17-06-2002 00:55 Visit Immortal Wombat's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#2 Report this post to a moderator
Suffering from ads?

Yeah, we're turning into xenophobic protectionist bigots too.

red_jon is offline red_jon
King
Uni of Wales Swansea
Oct 2000
time: 05:20
  Old Post 17-06-2002 00:56 Visit red_jon's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#3 Report this post to a moderator
Put an end to popups!

Well it has to be remembered that the American Democrats would be the equivalent of a right-wing party in Europe. European conservatives can be more liberal than the Democrat Party.

Countries wing from left to right wing. Will left-wing parties become more powerful again? Undoubtebly so, as will right-wing parties. When the voters feel that the right has failed them(whether it's true or not) they'll return to the left.

moomin is offline moomin
King
Moo Like In Moomin
Jul 2000
time: 05:20
  Old Post 17-06-2002 00:56
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#4 Report this post to a moderator
Re: Europeans Voters Turn Against Left Tired of ads?

quote:
Originally posted by Lincoln
Copyright 2002 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.


You might show the elementary decency of at least cutting that out when you violate it.

red_jon is offline red_jon
King
Uni of Wales Swansea
Oct 2000
time: 05:20
  Old Post 17-06-2002 00:59 Visit red_jon's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#5 Report this post to a moderator
Re: Re: Europeans Voters Turn Against Left Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote:
Originally posted by moominparatrooper


You might show the elementary decency of at least cutting that out when you violate it.


Lincoln was not republishing the information for his own personal gain. He was just using it to start a discussion. Why not take him to court?

Lincoln is offline Lincoln
King
TN
Jul 2000
time: 05:20
  Old Post 17-06-2002 01:00 Visit Lincoln's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#6 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I edited it out now so I wouldn't be put in a concentration camp.

Monk is offline Monk
Emperor
I don't think we're in Brønshøj anymore
Jan 1970
time: 06:20
  Old Post 17-06-2002 01:12 Visit Monk's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#7 Report this post to a moderator
Tired of ads?

Even in traditionally tolerant nations like the Netherlands and Denmark, populist outsider parties have made strong gains by capitalizing on fear of large ethnic minorities that show little sign of integrating.

I wrote a school project on the reasons for the Danish shift to the right at the parlamentary elections last November. The article made points on the populist scoring points on the issues of crime and immigration, but there are other noteworthy factors at play here. Of course, my focus was on Denmark but I'd think the same would apply for other countries. To summarize:

1) Voters don't vote according to class or ideological/economical beliefs, but care more for human issues, so to speak - what happens to people and their behaviour towards each other. Obviously, this greatly increases focus on crime and immigration, and then, the failure of the social democrats to demonstrate the personal values behind governmental decisions eventually becomes obvious and fatal. For this reason, although Danish social democrats reaped many compliments for their handling of our country's economy, they couldn't use it for much on election day.

2) The lack of a big, serious EU-sceptical center party. And in addition to that, a social democratic party cut in half where the leaders are strongly in favour, but the voters are much more sceptical, leading to a situation where they lose faith in their political elite, which are said to be out of touch with the people they represent. The right-wing leaders don't have this problem because they're not in the government, meaning that all of the focus is usually on one person, the leader, whose position in a more centralised party is virtually unthreatened due to the achieved results and because there hasn't been any other leaders.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:20
Question  Old Post 17-06-2002 01:18
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#8 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote:
Originally posted by Immortal Wombat
Yeah, we're turning into xenophobic protectionist bigots too.


Turning?

Lazarus and the Gimp is offline Lazarus and the Gimp
King
Whale-raping abomination
Aug 2000
time: 05:20
  Old Post 17-06-2002 01:21
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#9 Report this post to a moderator
Re: Europeans Voters Turn Against Left Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote:
Originally posted by Lincoln


But perhaps more than any other factor, the left has failed to tackle key law-and-order issues worrying many voters, especially illegal immigration and crime. Rightly or wrong, many voters link the two and feel threatened in their own homes.

A growing number of Europeans are worried or feel threatened by the influx of hundreds of thousands of newcomers, legal and illegal, from the Middle East, Asia and Africa. Even in traditionally tolerant nations like the Netherlands and Denmark, populist outsider parties have made strong gains by capitalizing on fear of large ethnic minorities that show little sign of integrating.

Peter Mandelson, a former British minister, said the left lost touch with middle-of-the-road voters that having long preached racial tolerance and welcomed immigrants, it has trouble even discussing such issues meaningfully, let alone coming up with policies.



Riiiiight. So is preaching racial tolerance and welcoming immigration good or bad?

Moral of the story? We too have witless buffoons, and allow them to vote and have opinions. That's democracy.

Gatekeeper is offline Gatekeeper
King
United States of America
Feb 2000
time: 23:20
  Old Post 17-06-2002 01:24 Visit Gatekeeper's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#10 Report this post to a moderator
Re: Re: Europeans Voters Turn Against Left Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote:
Originally posted by moominparatrooper
You might show the elementary decency of at least cutting that out when you violate it.


Speaking as a journalist here, that copyright notice is intended to prevent people from profiting from the efforts of the Associated Press. Now if Lincoln were charging $1 per post in this topic, he'd be getting a call from a lawyer. As it is, he's only facilitating discussion, much as a teacher would do with her or his class. IOW, Lincoln is doing precisely what journalists like to see: promoting discussion w/o a profit motive, using our material as a launching pad.

Gatekeeper

Lazarus and the Gimp is offline Lazarus and the Gimp
King
Whale-raping abomination
Aug 2000
time: 05:20
  Old Post 17-06-2002 01:28
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#11 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I'm amazed it's written by a supposed professional.

"Peter Mandelson, a former British minister, said the left lost touch with middle-of-the-road voters that having long preached racial tolerance and welcomed immigrants, it has trouble even discussing such issues meaningfully, let alone coming up with policies."

That's pure gibberish. I hope the writer can claim the excuse that English is not their first language.

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
King
Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:20
  Old Post 17-06-2002 01:48 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#12 Report this post to a moderator
Got spare money?

Spain and Italy have always been a bit chaotic with their politics. Spain had the Ultra-Right Wing nationalist leader Franco lead, and had the Civil Guard Tejero coup attempt in 1982. And Italy has had 50 or so governments since the end of WWII.

I think both countries are turning towards the right for the better....

I dunno about France or any other country. But as it seems they are turning right to with stunning results in elections.

BTW, I am not extremist right... I ditched that... I am Center Right... or an moderate Republican on American standards.

RJ: That sentence is what my teacher would criticize me for... a run-on sentence being unclear.

red_jon is offline red_jon
King
Uni of Wales Swansea
Oct 2000
time: 05:20
  Old Post 17-06-2002 01:55 Visit red_jon's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#13 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote:
Originally posted by Giancarlo
Spain and Italy have always been a bit chaotic with their politics. Spain had the Ultra-Right Wing nationalist leader Franco lead, and had the Civil Guard Tejero coup attempt in 1982. And Italy has had 50 or so governments since the end of WWII.

I think both countries are turning towards the right for the better....


Turning to the right? I thought you just said Spain was led by 'Ultra-Right nationalist' Franco?

quote:

BTW, I am not extremist right... I ditched that... I am Center Right... or an moderate Republican on American standards.


And that isn't extremist right?

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
King
Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:20
  Old Post 17-06-2002 01:59 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#14 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote:
Originally posted by red_jon


Turning to the right? I thought you just said Spain was led by 'Ultra-Right nationalist' Franco? [/b]


From 1936-1975 was the time frame it was ruled by Franco. Then it was ruled by a corrupt socialist I hate by the name of Gonzalez. He was kicked out by conservative leader Aznar.

quote:
[b]And that isn't extremist right?


No.

red_jon is offline red_jon
King
Uni of Wales Swansea
Oct 2000
time: 05:20
  Old Post 17-06-2002 02:01 Visit red_jon's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#15 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

That was a joke, Gian.

Stefu is offline Stefu
Emperor
CLOWNS WIT DA DOWNS 4 LIFE YO!
Jan 1970
time: 07:20
  Old Post 17-06-2002 02:04 Visit Stefu's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#16 Report this post to a moderator
Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

There is a righty sweep going on, indeed. Ever since Dubya, really. Putin in Russia, Fox in Mexico, Sharon in Israel, Rasmussen (not Rasmussen!) in Denmark, whoever (I'm pretty sure it isn't Varg Vikernes!) in Norway, Berlusconi in Italy, Balkenende in Netherlands, now Gaullists in France... and we can't forget Blair in Britain.

It's partly good and partly bad. I wouldn't vote for Berlusconi or British Conservatives, and definitely not for Dubya or Sharon, but having some change in power to less social-democratic in Scandinavia and other European countries isn't that bad.

As long as the change doesn't include Centre Party getting to government in Finland. Then again, they aren't righty party or anything.

Immortal Wombat is offline Immortal Wombat
Prince
in perpetuity
Dec 2000
time: 05:20
  Old Post 17-06-2002 02:09 Visit Immortal Wombat's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#17 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
Turning?

Is that you in your avatar? You're purty

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
King
Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:20
  Old Post 17-06-2002 02:09 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#18 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I always seen this shift about to happen since Aznar was elected in Spain in 1996.

Reddy, be more apparent about it then if it was a joke.

red_jon is offline red_jon
King
Uni of Wales Swansea
Oct 2000
time: 05:20
  Old Post 17-06-2002 02:11 Visit red_jon's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#19 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote:
Originally posted by Giancarlo
I always seen this shift about to happen since Aznar was elected in Spain in 1996.

Reddy, be more apparent about it then if it was a joke.


But I used da smileys!

Hueij is offline Hueij
Emperor
Kokonino Kounty
May 1999
time: 06:20
  Old Post 17-06-2002 02:12
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#20 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

So what else is new? Ten years ago it was the other way around, the left was on the rise... Ten years before that... I can guarantee you that before this decade is over we'll see a swing to the left again... And after that...

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
King
Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:20
  Old Post 17-06-2002 02:13 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#21 Report this post to a moderator
Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote:
Originally posted by Hueij
So what else is new? Ten years ago it was the other way around, the left was on the rise... Ten years before that... I can guarantee you that before this decade is over we'll see a swing to the left again... And after that...


I think my country, Spain, will be the only one to learn not to elect socialists again. We did and ended up having a 25% unemployment rate.

Sorry redjon, I skimmed through your message too quickly.

red_jon is offline red_jon
King
Uni of Wales Swansea
Oct 2000
time: 05:20
  Old Post 17-06-2002 02:15 Visit red_jon's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#22 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote:
Originally posted by Giancarlo


I think my country, Spain, will be the only one to learn not to elect socialists again. We did and ended up having a 25% unemployment rate.


It will eventually, or a 'third way' party. No countries votes either right nor left wing forever.

Hueij is offline Hueij
Emperor
Kokonino Kounty
May 1999
time: 06:20
  Old Post 17-06-2002 02:16
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#23 Report this post to a moderator
Tired of ads?

quote:
Originally posted by Giancarlo


I think my country, Spain, will be the only one to learn not to elect socialists again. We did and ended up having a 25% unemployment rate.

Sorry redjon, I skimmed through your message too quickly.

Don't you worry Giancarlo, voters have a very short memory

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
King
Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:20
  Old Post 17-06-2002 02:18 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#24 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

OKAY! OKAY... maybe my country will go towards the center... (I am not going to concede anymore than that)...

Damn voters... they never learn... stick with the conservatives! Well that is just my opinion...

But Aznar will be remembered in the minds of voters... he managed to bring the 25% unemployment rate to 11%.

*End Is Forever* is offline *End Is Forever*
Emperor
Salford, UK
Jan 1970
time: 05:20
Arrow  Old Post 17-06-2002 02:45 Visit *End Is Forever*'s homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#25 Report this post to a moderator
Suffering from ads?

Given that a US conservative posted this, it's interesting to note that on quite a few issues, these "right-wing" parties would be considered at least centrist, and possibly even centre-left, on the "American spectrum". I don't believe there would be any tolerance for the current Republican platform in any EU country, and hopefully there never will be.

Iain (a Tory branch vice-chair)

red_jon is offline red_jon
King
Uni of Wales Swansea
Oct 2000
time: 05:20
  Old Post 17-06-2002 02:48 Visit red_jon's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#26 Report this post to a moderator
Got spare money?

quote:
Originally posted by *End Is Forever*
Given that a US conservative posted this, it's interesting to note that on quite a few issues, these "right-wing" parties would be considered at least centrist, and possibly even centre-left, on the "American spectrum". I don't believe there would be any tolerance for the current Republican platform in any EU country, and hopefully there never will be.

Iain (a Tory branch vice-chair)


I SAID THIS IN MY FIRST POST!

Immortal Wombat is offline Immortal Wombat
Prince
in perpetuity
Dec 2000
time: 05:20
  Old Post 17-06-2002 02:51 Visit Immortal Wombat's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#27 Report this post to a moderator
Inflate your Upload Space

But you are not a Tory branch vice-chair

*End Is Forever* is offline *End Is Forever*
Emperor
Salford, UK
Jan 1970
time: 05:20
Arrow  Old Post 17-06-2002 02:52 Visit *End Is Forever*'s homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#28 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Yes, but it's easy for Lincoln (incorrectly) to dismiss that as a view of someone on the far-left. Although come to think of it, he probably thinks I'm on the hard left myself... which just shows how extreme-right and loony the Republican Party actually is.

Monk is offline Monk
Emperor
I don't think we're in Brønshøj anymore
Jan 1970
time: 06:20
  Old Post 17-06-2002 02:55 Visit Monk's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#29 Report this post to a moderator
Got spare money?

What made Fortyun famous even before his death was his liberal approach on various social issues. This serves as an indication of the crucial difference between the Republican Party and at least some of the European populists - the moral, restrictive part isn't present, or at least severely toned-down, making them easier to swallow. I've yet to see a Danish People's Party frontperson speak out against abortions or condemning homosexuality. And they're the only Danish party in favour of lifting the ban on selling alcohol to people younger than 15.

Starchild is offline Starchild
Emperor
a raving alcoholic drama queen with a penchant for the biosciences
Jan 1970
time: 00:20
  Old Post 17-06-2002 02:55
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#30 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Unlike the American (or Canadian) right, the European right is something that I occassionally consider voting for on the basis of some of their policies.

Usually however, for every policy I like, two others are slightly offputting. So I stay a centre-left cheerleader (with matching rose red pompoms!).

All the more reason to get some proportional representation and voting lists so I can vote for who I like in the order that I like them!!

 
Pages (3): [ 1   2   3   ]
< Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:20.
Apolyton Time is 00:20.
    top of page
Rate This Thread:
archivepost
Forum Jump:
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
 




Contact Us - Apolyton Civilization Site - Support Us!

Building a better Apolyton through better information. Click here and take our poll!
Non-US visitors, click here!

Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.0.3
Copyright ©2000, 2001, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.

Page generated in 0.0708 seconds (92.21% PHP - 7.79% MySQL) with 31 queries
Page Loading Time:

Support Apolyton: Amazon USA | Amazon UK | Amazon DE | Amazon FR |
Support Apolyton and get FREE PLUS, Buy from Chips&Bits: Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition | Call to Power 2 | Civilization: The Boardgame | GURPS/ Alpha Centauri | Alpha Centauri | Civilization IV | Civilization III: Complete |


Front Page | Civilization IV | Civilization III | Civilization II | Call to Power II | Alpha Centauri | Master of Orion III
Rise of Nations | Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations II | Misc
Alt.Civs | Civ I | C:CtP I | About | News | Directory | Apolyton Store | Forums | Chat | Columns | Interviews | Newsletter
Scenario League | CSC | Clash of Civs | Spanish Site | CtP Maps | Cradle of Civ | WesW's Ctp1/2 Site | Civ3 Haven

apolyton.net | apolyton.com | civilization2.net | civilization3.net | civilization4.net | civilizationiv.info | calltopower.net | galciv.net | galciv2.net | moo3.net