18-06-2002 05:53									#31
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We must trust the people.

The people have rendered their verdict before on this issue. Currently they are giving an emphatic answer of 75% yes.

Politicians will ignore this at their own peril.

	18-06-2002 05:59									#32
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither We must trust the people. The people have rendered their verdict before on this issue. Currently they are giving an emphatic answer of 75% yes. Politicians will ignore this at their own peril.

hi ,

, sounds like a warning , ....

some citizen's feel that the government should release a SAV(e) after every turn , ......

and some others argue that if the government has nothing to hide , they should do so , ....

why not , if it gets moe people here , and if more people get a bigger intrest , why not , ...

have a nice day

	18-06-2002 06:04									#33
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Note one thing, I will only post the file after every session of play. Posting the save after every turn will waste more of my time than playing the game.

	18-06-2002 06:25									#34
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I concur Trip.

	18-06-2002 06:33									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Note one thing, I will only post the file after every session of play. Posting the save after every turn will waste more of my time than playing the game.

hi ,

, , you could do so in a thread that only contains the SAV(e)'s , just a small post , saying the time and the number of the turn , .....
and this way it would be available to all people ,
and in case something goes wrong there would allways be a back-up .

all it would take is like 1 minute or so , ....

have a nice day

	18-06-2002 06:42									#36
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quote: Originally posted by panag hi , , , you could do so in a thread that only contains the SAV(e)'s , just a small post , saying the time and the number of the turn , ..... and this way it would be available to all people , and in case something goes wrong there would allways be a back-up . all it would take is like 1 minute or so , .... have a nice day

The save file should only be distributed via e mail, to stop would-be trouble makers from downloading the file and spoil it. Our Members can be trusted, and they should simply have to send the President/Vice President their E-Mail adress, and it should be sent to them.

I suggest a topped thread entitled: Post Requests for .SAV file here. Participants can then all post their e mail address in one place and it keeps it neat and clean.

A list of the recievers can be kept in the first post of the thread for easy access by the president.

imho, this is the best way of doing it. Making it available for anyone to download (non-apolyton members and off site personel) is not a good idea for the reasons Turd so fervently mentions.

	18-06-2002 06:45									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Timeline The save file should only be distributed via e mail, to stop would-be trouble makers from downloading the file and spoil it. Our Members can be trusted, and they should simply have to send the President/Vice President their E-Mail adress, and it should be sent to them. I suggest a topped thread entitled: Post Requests for .SAV file here. Participants can then all post their e mail address in one place and it keeps it neat and clean. A list of the recievers can be kept in the first post of the thread for easy access by the president. imho, this is the best way of doing it. Making it available for anyone to download (non-apolyton members and off site personel) is not a good idea for the reasons Turd so fervently mentions.

hi ,

, complicated and more time -consuming , the first , seems not bad , and anyone could download what they want , where and when , ...

have a nice day

	18-06-2002 06:55									#38
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see...it won't matter if people play ahead or not b/c only the "privileged" are able to start war. it makes sense to distribute it to the citizens so we know just how good/bad we're doing. and hey! we might even do better b/c people will be able to see different things not in screen shots!

	18-06-2002 07:00									#39
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But they can still tell us where things are, i.e. resources, civs, the lay of the land, etc.

	18-06-2002 07:01									#40
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quote: Originally posted by unholycowgod see...it won't matter if people play ahead or not b/c only the "privileged" are able to start war. it makes sense to distribute it to the citizens so we know just how good/bad we're doing. and hey! we might even do better b/c people will be able to see different things not in screen shots!

Of course, but some representatives of the people doesn't really care about their ignorant voting sheeps... or their own popularity for that sake? It's always been like that, and it always will be like that. In the representative democracies, that is...

	18-06-2002 07:29									#41
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Trip, I propose that any who 'cheat' us be banished from the land and never be spoken of again within this great nation. We may have to approach an Oracle and find out how the God Markos could facilitate such measures. Then put it to a poll.

	18-06-2002 08:21									#42
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither We must trust the people. The people have rendered their verdict before on this issue. Currently they are giving an emphatic answer of 75% yes. Politicians will ignore this at their own peril.

I dont trust the people all it takes is one dummy to break into the turn chats and say "THERE ARE A BAZILLION SPICE RIGHT OVER THAT MOUNTAIN AND THE PERSIANS COULD POSSIBLY GET IT!!" to ruin it.

And dont forget the second pythagorean theorem:

Given a non-empty set of people A and the set of all stupid people B then the set A intersect B is non empty.

(thats the one they DONT teach you until you get to polysci)

We elect our ministers for a reason. They are constitutionally bound to take the blame when they themselves fall into set B. So when they do something stupid with the save its easier to point fingers.

If this is done we should consider this:

1) It should be considered a cardinal treasonous act to 'play ahead' in the save game. Participating in the turn chats with this extra knowledge will effect (no matter how hard you try and deny it) your knowledge of the map and game. Doing this should be grounds for disciplinary action, impeachment, or maybe being booted from the game.

	18-06-2002 08:30									#43
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I agree with you Pythagoras, but we are in the minority and I can't overrule something such as that. If they're willing to risk that, then so be it. At least it won't be our faults, if something does happen.

	18-06-2002 08:32									#44
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No. Someone will always play ahead, look at the map etc. and this will influence their vote. Why do you need the save file anyway? The updates seem just fine.

	18-06-2002 14:00									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Trip But they can still tell us where things are, i.e. resources, civs, the lay of the land, etc.

hi ,

, when giving the SAV(e) at the end of a turn , it does not matter , and still , let us not care , if they want to talk , let them , .....so what , let it be , ...

what the main point is , is the "official game" , that matter's , ....

have a nice day

	18-06-2002 14:10									#46
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panag. You are wrong. What you are talking about is 1 ruining it for many. Please! Reconsider your attitude about the wishes of the majority.

Yes, we must respect your right to do with the sav as you will, but do you not have to consider our right to enjoy the game as we see fit?

Not some mythical 'them', but YOU.

	18-06-2002 14:30									#47
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither panag. You are wrong. What you are talking about is 1 ruining it for many. Please! Reconsider your attitude about the wishes of the majority. Yes, we must respect your right to do with the sav as you will, but do you not have to consider our right to enjoy the game as we see fit? Not some mythical 'them', but YOU.

hi ,

by the powers of jupiter , ...... it would be fun to realease the SAV(e) , ....... , there is nothing to hide , nothing that can be done to harm the game , so , realease the game from its enslavement , ....
the first one who try's to corrupt the game with a sav , if that is allready an option , shall be strucken by the powers of mars , .....; and so shall the second one be , and ALL the others following the first two , .......

of course in order to do that , we need to keep placing banana's in front of the gods , ......

have a nice day

	18-06-2002 14:36									#48
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I will interpret that as you will respect the wishes of the majority panag. You will keep any unknown information to yourself.

Thank you.

	18-06-2002 14:49									#49
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the released savegame will also
a) help some ppl understand the game better
b) help finding interesting alternative tactics (the more eyes look, the more interesting ideas evolve)
c) stop asking and explaining things
d) helps resolve complicated situations by a look

	18-06-2002 14:56									#50
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Yes disorganizer, there are many good reasons for the sav to be shared.

The down side is someone or someones making themselves into oracles. I strongly advise agianst any such jerry mandering. The response will be hostile to say the least.

	18-06-2002 15:09									#51
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we could also have a president giving away the save to his friends and they could then play oracle.
we should not see enemy in our citizens, but in our neighbors.

	18-06-2002 15:14									#52
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I don't really mind not having a save game, as long as we get enough screenshots and info on what's happening.

However, it seems as we will get the savegame as often as possible.

So why not make a rule (or vote for such a rule) that if anyone exploits the savegame, all further savegames will be denied from the people and the exploiter will be banned from Apolytonia for all eternity.


I haven't actually read this whole thread, so don't flame me too much.

	18-06-2002 15:15									#53
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disorganizer,

You have more wisdom than a newbie should. You may be from somewhere else, that's OK. Who are you?

However, if the Prez wants to look brilliant, he can simply play ahead himself and know all the right moves 'naturally'.

I have stated strenuous oppostion to some of Trip's domestic policies, and I've certainly put a bit of reputation on the line in these affairs. However, I would never accuse him of such perfidy.

	18-06-2002 15:17									#54
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Well, it was just an example of what could also happen. I wanted to exagurate the "i dont trust our citizens" part a bit.
Of course, i think this will never happen (will we ever have a proove for this?). But if we dont trust our citizens, why should we trust our leaders? Or maybe someone spies on our nation? The AI maybe has registered as Apolyton user to look on our tactics.

	18-06-2002 15:21									#55
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quote: Originally posted by disorganizer But if we dont trust our citizens, why should we trust our leaders?

This is a perfect quote. Thank you very much! And welcome in large letters, THANK YOU!

	18-06-2002 16:00									#56
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The reason we can (perhaps) trust the leaders more than the ppl is, that although at some point the "trustworthy" leaders wil become "untrustworthy" citizens and vice versa, is the idea of responsibility. No citizen posting here has any responsibilities, yet the Council have all been voted in, have responsibilities to the ppl whilst they are in, and face a hostile reaction if they shirk these responsibilities, with possible enforced resignation. The reason a person is voted in is because they have been seen to be diligent, trustworthy and effective as a citizen. No normal poster has been given that "clearance".

	18-06-2002 16:06									#57
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Our leaders come from our citizens. To consider one less trustworthy than the next is to begin questioning us all.

	18-06-2002 16:12									#58
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That is why I do not subscribe to this idea. I believe only the Ministers should get the save as I see their job less relevant where all can see the game.

	18-06-2002 16:15									#59
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The ministers have power over the game. We have suggestions. There is a difference.

	18-06-2002 16:18									#60
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But the Ministers must follow the citizens' decisions. They are merely supposed to come up with proposals or ask for them and then poll on them whilst answering questions that the people have - they should not have power over the people.

The Ministers work for US. The only one who could be considered to have any power is the Prez.