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Apolyton Civilization Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.0.3 Apolyton Civilization Forums > Miscellaneous > Archive > Off-Topic-Archive > U.S. will withdraw from U.N. peacekeeping unless troops are exempted from world court
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Lincoln is offline Lincoln
King
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Jul 2000
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  Old Post 20-06-2002 03:11 Visit Lincoln's homepage!
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U.S. will withdraw from U.N. peacekeeping unless troops are exempted from world court Suffering from ads?

June 19
— By Evelyn Leopold

UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) - To the dismay of its allies, the United States on Wednesday threatened to withdraw from U.N. peacekeeping missions if its troops were not exempted from the reach of a new global criminal court.

As part of a U.S. onslaught against the court, the Bush administration introduced a draft U.N. Security Council resolution that would exclude all missions, military and civilian, fielded by the United Nations or even endorsed by the world body, such as the NATO-led troops in Kosovo or Bosnia.

"We will not put American men and women under the reach of the International Criminal Court while serving in a United Nations peacekeeping operation," said U.S. representative Richard Williamson.

A U.S. official said if American personnel were not protected there would "no longer be U.S. peacekeepers."

No one in the 15-member council agreed with the American stance on the court, the world's first permanent tribunal to try the most heinous crimes -- genocide, war crimes and systematic, gross human rights abuses.

Supporters of the court consider it the most important development in international law since the Nazi war crimes tribunal in Nuremberg after World War II.

Several members said they would see if "there was a way out" of the dispute, such as expanding the network of bilateral agreements. Russia, which has signed the treaty, questioned what authority the council had over statutes for a court separate from the United Nations, diplomats said.

"I don't know if there is a way," said Norwegian Ambassador Ole Peter Kolby. Others wondered if the U.S. stand was final.

The treaty establishing the court has been ratified by 67 nations, including all 15 European Union members and Canada.

In the council, Britain, France, Ireland, Norway, Bulgaria and Mauritius have ratified it. All other members, except for China and Singapore, have signed it and several said they would ratify it soon.

The court is not retroactive. No crime committed before July 1 can be prosecuted by the tribunal when it begins functioning in The Hague, Netherlands, sometime next year.

SYSTEMATIC CRIMES

Prosecutions are only valid if national courts are unable or unwilling to bring perpetrators to justice. Only a state ratifying the treaty can make a complaint against its citizens or those of other nations for crimes committed on its soil.

But Williamson was clear he would not be swayed.

"Other members of the Security Council will not change our position," he said. "Obviously the whole spectrum of U.N. peacekeeping operations will have to be reviewed if we are unsuccessful at getting the protection we demand be in place."

The Bush administration and many members of the U.S. Congress oppose the court as a threat to national sovereignty. They also fear U.S. officials and soldiers could be subject to political prosecutions, which Europeans say is unlikely.

The new U.S. draft resolution stipulates the responsibility to investigate any crimes as the duty of "member states contributing personnel participating in operations established or authorized the U.N. Security Council."

U.N. peacekeeping missions usually have such immunity in bilateral agreements but Washington wants to make it air tight. The document says soldiers or civilians would have immunity from prosecution when they go to other countries for cases arising out of a U.N.-backed operation.

The United States has only about 700 personnel in U.N. missions -- police, civilians and a handful of military observers, but no combat troops. It does have 5,200 troops in Kosovo and 2,500 soldiers in Bosnia outside the U.N. command, which it wants exempted.

The Security Council this week intends to renew the U.N. mission in Bosnia, which has ratified the court's treaty. A separate amendment was submitted by Washington to exclude the U.N. personnel as well as NATO-led peacekeepers there.

"We've made it clear we need to have the ICC issue addressed before we support a resolution," Williamson said.

The treaty on the court was signed by former President Bill Clinton and then renounced by President Bush. Its statutes come into force on July 1.

Calling the U.S. stance an "ideological jihad," Richard Dicker of Human Rights Watch said the "text is an effort to hold U.S. participation in peacekeeping missions hostage to unwarranted U.S. fears. It puts the United States on the wrong side of the most important human rights institution created in the past 50 years."


Copyright 2002 Reuters News Service. All rights reserved.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:20
  Old Post 20-06-2002 03:17
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Jeez, what are we doing? Holding the rest of the world hostage? Engaging in international blackmail? And then we are fighting a War on Terrorism? Hell, these tactics seem like ones terrorists would use: blackmail and ransom payments!

BOOOOOOOOO!

You know, I'm seriously reconsidering my Republican Party Membership.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:20
  Old Post 20-06-2002 03:18
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Waits for David Floyd

Lincoln is offline Lincoln
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Jul 2000
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  Old Post 20-06-2002 03:19 Visit Lincoln's homepage!
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"You know, I'm seriously reconsidering my Republican Party Membership."

I was wondering why you stuck around as long as you did. But what party would you join?

David Floyd is offline David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:20
  Old Post 20-06-2002 03:20 Visit David Floyd's homepage!
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This is wonderful news - but we should withdraw from UN Peacekeeping regardless.

David Floyd is offline David Floyd
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Jan 1970
time: 05:20
  Old Post 20-06-2002 03:20 Visit David Floyd's homepage!
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quote:
Waits for David Floyd


DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:20
  Old Post 20-06-2002 03:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
You know, I'm seriously reconsidering my Republican Party Membership.


Really? I might join if he keeps this up.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:20
  Old Post 20-06-2002 03:24
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quote:
But what party would you join?


Libertarian Party... or stay Independant. The Libs are far out for me, but I wouldn't hesitate to vote them in.

MichaeltheGreat is offline MichaeltheGreat
Apolyton Grand Executioner
mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:20
  Old Post 20-06-2002 03:25
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I can see concerns about politicization and ideological misuse of the court, but flat out demands for exemption are completely over the top. Especially, as Imran notes, when we need foreign allies, or at least foreign cooperation, and anti-terrorism and other policy issues.

Bush needs to make up his damn mind, if he hasn't lost what passes for one in his case - is the US going to swagger through the world like the lone sheriff (or with Bush's consistency, like Doc ****in' Holliday on an excess of laudanum), or is the US going to be a leader among allies?

Can't do it both ways.

Lorizael is offline Lorizael

Prince
The Cult Wins
Sep 2001
time: 00:20
  Old Post 20-06-2002 03:25
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The US is withdrawing from the International Community. We're becoming isolationists again.

No, worse, we're becoming ultra nationalists. We are creating policies for the sole benefit of our country and we are not helping the rest of the world.

This is the complete wrong direction to be going in order to achieve worldwide peace and prosperity.

TCO is offline TCO
Emperor
Richmond, VA
Jan 1970
time: 00:20
  Old Post 20-06-2002 03:28
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Sounds good to me.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:20
  Old Post 20-06-2002 03:29
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quote:
Especially, as Imran notes, when we need foreign allies, or at least foreign cooperation, and anti-terrorism and other policy issues.


You just like that I said I was considering leaving the Republican Party .

I totally agree though. We can't walk the thin line and piss off both sides. We have to make a decision. And to think Republicans blamed Clinton for being wishy-washy!

JohnIII is offline JohnIII
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Apr 1999
time: 05:20
  Old Post 20-06-2002 03:34
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quote:
Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Bush needs to make up his damn mind, if he hasn't lost what passes for one in his case - is the US going to swagger through the world like the lone sheriff (or with Bush's consistency, like Doc ****in' Holliday on an excess of laudanum), or is the US going to be a leader among allies?

The US is going to be Judge Holden from Glanton's Gang in Blood Meridian. 'If war is not holy, man is nothing but antic clay.'

TCO is offline TCO
Emperor
Richmond, VA
Jan 1970
time: 00:20
  Old Post 20-06-2002 03:34
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the world court is a bad idea. look no further than the people on this baord seriously suggesting going after people like kissinger. It's going to be a silly court that restricts actions by the good guys and does nothing to the bad guys. How will it enforce its mandates. Uncle Sugar, baby.

If the Euro nations are so hot and heavy to police the world, why aren't they picking up the slack. Why are they selling anthrax and nuclear reactors to Saddam? They're all talk and little action.

MichaeltheGreat is offline MichaeltheGreat
Apolyton Grand Executioner
mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:20
  Old Post 20-06-2002 03:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
quote:
Especially, as Imran notes, when we need foreign allies, or at least foreign cooperation, and anti-terrorism and other policy issues.


You just like that I said I was considering leaving the Republican Party .


Hell, I guarantee you I'm voting Republican in this year's California gubernatorial race - anybody but Davis.

And no matter what opportunities they're given, the Dems can't get away from that harebrained hyperliberal rhetoric, so they're not going anywhere. Only thing worse than blatant pandering corporate whores are a group of blatant pandering corporate whores who tell you they're doing it all for your benefit.

Sandman is offline Sandman
Prince
Sinister Penguin
Aug 2001
time: 05:20
  Old Post 20-06-2002 03:36
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Got spare money?

Maybe the UN will get a lot more done without the spoilt rich kid who never stops throwing spanners in the works.

Let America stew in its own juices.

TCO is offline TCO
Emperor
Richmond, VA
Jan 1970
time: 00:20
  Old Post 20-06-2002 03:36
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Nothing wishy-washy about it. The internationalist agencies have a pathetic record. Last thing I want is more make-work jobs for these hucksters...

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:20
  Old Post 20-06-2002 03:37
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quote:
Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Hell, I guarantee you I'm voting Republican in this year's California gubernatorial race - anybody but Davis.


Your family in KY (IIRC?) would kill you if you did that.

Lincoln is offline Lincoln
King
TN
Jul 2000
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  Old Post 20-06-2002 03:37 Visit Lincoln's homepage!
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This is just the usual carrot and stick approach. What good is the objection to the World Court if there is nothing to back it up? I used to spy on the Russians in a submarine. I would hate to think that we were all subject to the world court if there had been an incident.

It is really too soon to tell what Bush is up to yet. Strategy can be pretty a pretty tricky thing to figure out when you are not involved in what the other guy is thinking.

TCO is offline TCO
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Richmond, VA
Jan 1970
time: 00:20
  Old Post 20-06-2002 03:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Sandman
Maybe the UN will get a lot more done without the spoilt rich kid who never stops throwing spanners in the works.

Let America stew in its own juices.


Yeah...just like you policed up the Balkans on your own. No? Oh that's right...

Lincoln is offline Lincoln
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  Old Post 20-06-2002 03:40 Visit Lincoln's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by GP
the world court is a bad idea. look no further than the people on this baord seriously suggesting going after people like kissinger. It's going to be a silly court that restricts actions by the good guys and does nothing to the bad guys. How will it enforce its mandates. Uncle Sugar, baby.

If the Euro nations are so hot and heavy to police the world, why aren't they picking up the slack. Why are they selling anthrax and nuclear reactors to Saddam? They're all talk and little action.


We fight. They judge. Sounds fair to me.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:20
  Old Post 20-06-2002 03:41
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quote:
I would hate to think that we were all subject to the world court if there had been an incident


That statement shows you know nothing about the court, and are using scare tactics .

The ICC can't bring charges for a one-time offense. It must be systematic.

Lincoln is offline Lincoln
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  Old Post 20-06-2002 03:45 Visit Lincoln's homepage!
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Well we were systematicaly spying for several years. Also we had some orders that I cannot talk about here. The point is that we did not need to be dragged before a foreign body that is over in Europe not engaged in the battle.

Lincoln is offline Lincoln
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  Old Post 20-06-2002 03:48 Visit Lincoln's homepage!
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By the way Imran, do you ever withdraw from a position even when I proved that you are wrong? Just repent and see it my way and we can save a lot of time here.

TCO is offline TCO
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Jan 1970
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  Old Post 20-06-2002 03:51
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The Euros all have the "little brother complex". Cpmplain about whatever big brother does wrong even as he's protecting them. Buncha born critics. Not a leader in the bunch. Take that back, Thatcher had some stones...

Lincoln is offline Lincoln
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Jul 2000
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  Old Post 20-06-2002 03:55 Visit Lincoln's homepage!
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So did Churchill. I guess they forgot about him.

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
King
Macedonia
May 2001
time: 00:20
  Old Post 20-06-2002 03:55 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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Who are you protecting Europe from these days, GP?

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:20
  Old Post 20-06-2002 03:58
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quote:
By the way Imran, do you ever withdraw from a position even when I proved that you are wrong?


Um.. what? You've never proved me wrong. In fact, I've proven you wrong a number of times and you never acknowledged it. Have you ever been right on anything except your political wing?

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
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  Old Post 20-06-2002 03:59
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quote:
Well we were systematicaly spying for several years.


When is spying a war crime? Again, not understand anything.

MichaeltheGreat is offline MichaeltheGreat
Apolyton Grand Executioner
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Oct 1999
time: 21:20
  Old Post 20-06-2002 04:00
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc


Your family in KY (IIRC?) would kill you if you did that.


Yep, it's KY. I don't have to tell Aunt Lucy, though,

 
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