28-10-1999 22:54									#1
	CTP: The Best Civ, or TBS, Game Ever? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Okay, fellow Civers.
We've heard the complaints, know about the bugs, the *ahem* reasoning about how it's the 'worst' game of all-time, but this is question here: Is it the best Civilization, or Turn-Based-Strategy, game ever?

I'll vote first.
1. Best Civ game? Yes.

Despite it's faults, its bugs, and the Civ2 stuff they left out of it, I think that the logical view is that, without having tried TOT or SMAC, it kicks butt! Pound for pound, I think it's better than Civ and Civ2.


2. Best TBS? I don't know.

I haven't played every TBS out there, so I'll decline from giving an opinion on that side.

And...
3. If you don't have an opinion about either or don't think it's in 1 or 2, what's something you like about CTP?


...I like lots of things, which I'll include later, but for now...

What do you think?


------------------


"Verrosten est X-beine das Fahrbar Bliken Obszon
Abgabepflichtighoffenburger!?!?!?!"


"Like Wes said...."
[This message has been edited by Nordicus (edited October 28, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by Nordicus (edited October 28, 1999).]

	29-10-1999 01:09									#2
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Hi Nordicus,

My vote:

Is CTP the best Civ game out there? Yes, CTP is the best Civ game out there. I have tried them all.


Is CTP the best TBS Game out there? I don't know, I haven't tried them all, but it is the best one that I have tried.

Timothy Pintello

	29-10-1999 02:43									#3
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I think CTP is the best Civ game out. I have tried Civ1 and Civ2.

Is it the best TBS game out? I like TBS games for the strategy and don't really care about the graphics or sound. The most important thing to me is the strategic challenge. There is a PBEM/TBS called Galaxy. It had the greatest strategic challenge because you were only playing agains other humans. Thus, it is my favorite. The CTP AI is not that great and multiplayer games are hard to arrange (because the game starts slowly PBEM games seem soooo SLOW at the beginning). However, the flexiblity of CTP allows us to tinker with the AI, and it gives us the hope of competing against a much better AI.

	29-10-1999 05:07									#4
	Increase the size of your Attachments

pchang65:
Hmmm. Sounds like scenarios might be better for multiplayer PBEM games--ones at the start of which you don't have to wait to develop tech and a whole bunch of cities? I dunno, I haven't tried the multiplayer side of CTP yet.
Yeah, I hear what you're saying about the AI, (and diplomacy) but we're working on that, and that's another thing about CTP: you can change it, even an idiot like me.
Never heard of Galaxy--what's it about?

------------------
"There can be no maximum of creation without a concomitant maximum of destruction, no supreme good without supreme evil"--Heller, paraphrasing Nietzsche.


"It never stops, never rests, and I can see its hideous face: it looks like Jesus, looks like Lucifer, looks like me...looks like I won't be seeing you tonight..."--Thomas Knight.


"Verrosten est X-beine das Fahrbar Bliken Obszon
Abgabepflichtighoffenburger!?!?!?!"


"Like Wes said...."

[This message has been edited by Nordicus (edited October 28, 1999).]

	29-10-1999 06:19									#5
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Okay, since this a pro-CTP thread, I'm going to include some from Wes's older thread: "List the small gameplay improvements"
and his intro:


I have noticed that CTP has eliminated a number of annoyances that occurred in the Sid games. Let's list the ones you have noticed. I will list a couple to start.
1) You get a warning that a city may riot the next turn, which gives you a chance to take pre-emptive action. In the other games, you had to manually check out each city to prevent this.
2) Sleeping units in ports stay that way when a ship comes in. This eliminates a lot of hassels when moving invasion forces.

Excellent, reasonable, well-explained points, Wes.


------------------
"There can be no maximum of creation without a concomitant maximum of destruction, no supreme good without supreme evil"--Heller, paraphrasing Nietzsche.


"It never stops, never rests, and I can see its hideous face: it looks like Jesus, looks like Lucifer, looks like me...looks like I won't be seeing you tonight..."--Thomas Knight.


"Verrosten est X-beine das Fahrbar Bliken Obszon
Abgabepflichtighoffenburger!?!?!?!"


"Like Wes said...."

	29-10-1999 06:24									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Wes(has some more: )

quote: I quess I'll list a couple more. The airport. I remember thinking when playing civ II that the airport's function was largely a waste, and that it should also increase revenue or something, and that is exactly what Activision did in CTP. The stacked combat feature makes more realistic battles. In civ II, your artillery was used to battle defending infantry. With CTP, the artillery correctly is used to soften up the defenders, while other types storm the walls. Also, the AI now attacks in the proper unit sequence due to the stacking feature. This thread was intended to be a place where we could share the good features of CTP, since so many threads concentrate on the gripes we have with it.

[This message has been edited by Nordicus (edited October 28, 1999).]

	29-10-1999 06:34									#7
	Put an end to popups!

And Monkey

quote: Personally I like how the happiness button in the city tab will tell you why the city is unhappy.... How about the active defence idea? I like that too...

	29-10-1999 06:36									#8
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And Slax

quote: I like that railroads don't give you infinite movement. You can no longer move out of a city, travel all the way around the world on the enemy's railroad, and attack another city in the same turn. I LOVE bombarding. "LIGHT THE FUSE!" I like the differentiated shallow and deep oceans. I like that mountains get larger graphically if there are more mountain tiles together. I like the trade system. No more moving caravans, and its special resource - based. and more...

	29-10-1999 06:38									#9
	Full PM-box? Change here!

And Hexigonian

quote: Pathing allows you to see how many tiles a unit can move. The interface in CTP has gotton a lot of criticism, as many people have complained about the tabs (too small, too many clicks, no more city screen) One advantage of the tab system in CTP is that it doesn't block out the map. The city labor screen is movable too. Some players complain about the spreadsheet quality of CTP. However, I find it gives you a clearer picture of how your civ is doing. I also like the complete city list that allows you to compare cities based on production/hapiness/science/gold and helps you strategically plan which cities get what improvements. I haven't played CIV or CIVII, but I have a copy of CIV Test of Time, so I'm drawing comparisons from that.

	29-10-1999 06:40									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Wes with more:

quote: I like how if an enemy unit occupies a tile you were working, the computer automatically moves the worker back to it when the unit moves off of it.

	29-10-1999 06:42									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

John LeMaitre

quote: Although this has more to do with me (and the Apolyton site!) than with the game, I like the fact that I can now change the civs and civ leader graphics on my own. There was no way I could do that (as far as I can tell....) on Civ II. I also like the increased number of Wonders, and the fact that the game doesn't end so early. I also like the fact that the AI wonder can really be a gamble! I also like that CTP is more multi-cultural, in that a higher percentage of the Wonders, civs, and music are of non-EuroAmerican origin. (Some of my faves, such as the Maya, were skipped in Civ II. Now they even have their own wonder!)

	29-10-1999 06:45									#12
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And another one from our man, super-mellow, Timothy Pintello

quote: I like the customizability, is that a word, of just about everything in the game.

	29-10-1999 06:47									#13
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Monkey once more:

quote: Just found out the other day that there is right click help for most things on the user interface. Very useful IMO... I like how if you right click on an improvement or unit on the queue list it gives a small description of it... I didn't know you can do this until the other day... i used to alternate between the build screen and the queue list to see what an improvement does...

	29-10-1999 06:54									#14
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Doc Dee had this to say:

quote: It's hard to remember that far back (I've not played civII for about a year). But how come public works don't rate a mention? Micromanaging a horde of food hungry engineers/settlers was a nightmare, particularly when you'd disbanded them on a continent because it was already maximally developed. I also love the different levels of mining, farming etc - and the advanced farms DO NOT require that annoying supermarket to be built. Also micromanaging (and I know this has already been mentioned) is trading. It's a shame all goods are equal in CTP (I'd like things like oil to be worthless initially, but hugely valuable in the mid game), but being able to set up trade routes without guiding your little camel/truck around the map is a big improvement. Another biggie (unless I misremember civII) is that you can kick out settlers without starting wars (ie by killing them). It's good to see some positive threads about CTP, since certain forummers appear to enjoy bullying those of us who actually like the game. It's a flawed game with the potential to be the best TBS so far. I just hope that they continue to improve it to iron out all the little things that still bug me/us - eg AI and diplomacy.

[This message has been edited by Nordicus (edited October 28, 1999).]

	29-10-1999 06:59									#15
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And Lev

quote: It took getting Test of Time to bring to my attention how many things CtP got right. Bombarding, stacking, pathing, graphics(!!!), trade. The government model is much better than CivII, especially since it's expandable and configurable, though I do like SMACs "social engineering" matrix even more. One thing I =really= appreciate: the alert-box system. I hated late-game in CivII, having to click through endless alert messages at the beginning of each turn before I could do =anything= else, even just save and quit. In CtP, I look at the messages when I want to, and if I wanna save and quit at the beginning of a turn, all the messages are still waiting for me when I get back. Come to think of it, I also really like how, no matter what is going on, I can open different menus or tabs without having to wait other stuff to finish. Nicely done, Activision! I do have some gripes, but those are for other threads. :-)

	29-10-1999 07:02									#16
	Increase the size of your Attachments

And Victor:

quote: I love queues. Also, being able to assign a certain thing to be built for multiple cities at once. Near the end of the game, when I am just maxing out cities, I create an "ultimate queue" that has all the buildings, and have every city build it. After I see a leviathan (last production item) come out of a city, it can build just about anything in 1-3 turns, or can churn out tons of money/PW.

	29-10-1999 07:04									#17
	Increase the size of your Attachments

And, yes, once again,Wes:

quote: Another big improvement in CTP is in the AI's ability to use the terrain improvements. If you've ever used the cheat ability to look inside the AI cities in CIV II, you would see that the tiles the settlers were improving were not coordinated with the ones the cities were using. In CTP, the AI does base improvements on what a city needs. This makes for a much better use of resources and a more realistic opponent.

	29-10-1999 07:09									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

The preceeding were taken from The Other Thread(the 'Horsing' around one, nudge-nudge, wink-wink, say no more...or nay no more ), this one fromavvv

quote: CTP is a great game! Maybe it's not good as CivII was in '96, but now, it's much better than CivII. Maybe its not a perfect game, but there is no perfect game!! Everytime I lost the CTP disc and played CivII for nostalgy of CTP, I miss CTP much more than I miss CivII when I play CTP.

[This message has been edited by Nordicus (edited October 28, 1999).]

	29-10-1999 07:11									#19
	Tired of ads?

Here's Robm:

quote: CTP is a great game. I'm not one to waste time playing games I don't like. And I've played this game for hours upon hours. I love CTP, and I can't wait to see what Activision has in store next.

	29-10-1999 07:16									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

And here's another from the other thread, from Ernie

quote: My initial reaction to the game was negative but that was because I was not famliar with the in and outs of it. But now a couple of months later I like it more than Civ. 2.

	29-10-1999 07:30									#21
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

hexagonian yet again:

quote: At least I can tell what each sprite is supposed to be. The graphic definition is much clearer than TOT or CIVII. And lets face it, if the sprites were in proportion to the map, then you couldn't see your units in the first place....

	29-10-1999 07:36									#22
	Full PM-box? Change here!

And LordZarm

quote: CTP rocks!!! I have been saying this since it came out. I dont play Civ 2 anymore with CTP's trade and its fighting (more than one unit at a time) cant believe someone doesnt like this game.

	29-10-1999 07:47									#23
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

And of course, the memorable Turgidmember

quote: I like the big units! I have a 19" monitor and I play at 640x480.. it makes me giggle like a school girl to finally see units that seem.. well.. like units and not eensy splotches of color (like starcraft, etc.) In the words of Sir MixALot, "I like 'em round.. and big!" referring to the fact that I enjoy prodigiously sized units, with an absence of jaggies. Give me WarcraftII any old day! Oh, which *mods* would everyone suggest? I have the 1.2 patch, and heard mention of an "Apolyton" and a "sandwich" pack.. would anyone care to elaborate?

	29-10-1999 07:55									#24
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Well, this the closest Alexander's Horse came, but it's better than nothing, and really, what can we expect ?

quote: One thing on the sprites, I would prefer, both in Civ and CTP if the sprites were units rather than individuals - i.e. a squadron of ships/planes, a cohort of legionaries, a company of musketeers. I think this would look awesome. Would have been a lot better then wasting a whole lot of graphic resources making the sprites throw shadows

And I'll leave the rest up to intelligent Civers! C'mon--don't be shy

	29-10-1999 07:59									#25
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

the best TBS game out there is SMAC. Period.

	29-10-1999 13:01									#26
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Any game which allows you to brutally kill lawyers cant be all that bad--------------------Iron fist in avelvet glove

	29-10-1999 15:28									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Is CTP the best civ game? Hmmmm... having just picked up a copy of SMAC yesterday and played for seven hours... I'd have to say no, CTP is not the best. I would put CTP equal with civ2... see Purple's thread entitled future shock for why this is so.

I agree with ProvostB so far.. SMAC is the best civ game so far... the sheer amount of options in its diplomacy, the combinations of its social enginnering model, the 3D terrain and the unit design shop are just a few things that have won it for me.

As for whether CTP is the best TBS game ever, well I guess no since I've already put it behind SMAC. Then again to say that SMAC is the greatest TBS game ever would be quite hard... there are a lot of contenders out there for the trophy past and present, most of which I havent played... games like Jagged Alliance, HOMM, MOO2, X-Com

	29-10-1999 22:33									#28
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To Nordicus:

Galaxy was a PBEM multiplayer game which ran on a Unix Server. You started out on a planet and tried to expand into the galaxy. You had to maintain the flow of resources throughout your empire with cargo fleets. You had to use these resources to develop each individual planet. You designed your own ships and built them within the resource and physics model of the game. Everything was based on real numbers. Many people developed their own programs (or excel spreadsheets) to calculate optimum ship designs, resource routes, development rates, etc. and ran them through multiple monte carlo type simulations to figure out what to do for their turn. I have never seen a game that engaging since.

	30-10-1999 00:30									#29
	Tired of ads?

Pchang65:
Hey, sounds pretty cool. I like the part about "designing your own ships." I get bored quickly with any game that doesn't allow you to customize--maybe I'm too picky, or maybe I'm not that generic, I dunno.
But it sounds quite challenging, so what about the graphics? I recall you saying that graphics don't thrill you that much, or something like that, so does that mean that this has not very good graphics?

	30-10-1999 00:41									#30
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Monkey:
Well, Ill repeat the questions (listing all the good parts of CTP may have gotten you off topic a bit )

quote: 1. Best Civ game?

(Not Civ-like: that's this question: )

quote: 2. Best TBS?

(And I'll paraphrase the third: )

quote: 3. If not, what's something you like about CTP?

Unless I'm shamelessly drunk, SMAC is not in the Civ serious, otherwise it would be called: Civ: AC...no?

Hey, thanks for your vote anyway


[This message has been edited by Nordicus (edited October 29, 1999).]