21-06-2002 21:50									#1
	Terract in Jenin! Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Israeli troops have fired tank shells at Palestinians in a marketplace in the West Bank town of Jenin, killing at least three civilians and injuring more than 20 others.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/wo...000/2057847.stm

	21-06-2002 21:53									#2
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Horrible.

The official arguments will probably end up being along the lines of "they started it"

	21-06-2002 21:55									#3
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And after days/weeks/months of anti-israeli trolling, it will be found out that these "civilians" all had ak-47s, explosives strapped to their chests, and maps of Israeli elementary schools.

	21-06-2002 21:56									#4
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This is getting old Israel/Palestine, nobody is going to take either side seriously as long as this keeps up.

	21-06-2002 21:56									#5
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

After weeks, namely exactly as soon as the IDF hits one of those guys accidentally. That'll be a new "yeah, we killed many mothers in ambulances, but weeks later there was a terrorist in an ambulance we destroyed without looking before, so that's an excuse for everything".

	21-06-2002 21:56									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion Horrible. The official arguments will probably end up being along the lines of "they started it"

Or even the Apolyton arguments.

	21-06-2002 22:30									#7
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quote: An Israeli army spokeswoman told BBC News Online that the unit in Jenin had "erred in its action". The army has begun an investigation into what it says are accidental killings.

I take it you fellas don't believe them?

-Arrian

	21-06-2002 22:32									#8
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I tend not to believe that army. It's difficult to accidentally shoot int a crowd.

	21-06-2002 22:36									#9
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Just checking.

We can't know for sure, though, since we didn't see it. I don't have faith that either combatant (Israel/Pals) will tell the whole truth about what happened. What's the saying? "Truth is the first casualty of war." Seems to apply.

-Arrian

	21-06-2002 22:38									#10
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I guess "one ofthem was running toward the tansk screaming and carrying many weapons, as well as an explosives belt and a nuclear bomb meant to be planted in New York City".

	21-06-2002 22:42									#11
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It would have to be a hell of a blast to reach here Andy.

I have no words for this, if they did kill civilians, they should be punished, on the other hand, there is every chance that the "innocents" were firing on them, we never get a clear picture till much later, so condemnations are pointless at this jucture.

	21-06-2002 22:59									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 It would have to be a hell of a blast to reach here Andy. I have no words for this, if they did kill civilians, they should be punished, on the other hand, there is every chance that the "innocents" were firing on them, we never get a clear picture till much later, so condemnations are pointless at this jucture.

But Chris, holding condemnation until the facts come in wouldn't be the cool thing to do.

	22-06-2002 00:30									#13
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That's right.

I was relying on previous threads though.

	22-06-2002 00:59									#14
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Actually it was a mistake.

There was a curfew, but apparently several Palestinians somehow got the idea that the curfew was over.

When they approached a group carrying out a mission of house to house search, a tank opened fire aimed near them, to scare them away, and possibly some troops opened fire as well.

The dead are a 50 y/o male and 3 children. If during the time of the shooting it was clear that those were innocent children, it would constitute and illegal order.

The problem is, that the curfew is there for a reason. The reason being, that IDF troops would have easier time, since the assumption is that civilians are obeying the curfew, and most disobeyers are people with malicious intent.

In another, unrelated incident, a kid was killed when a house near it was blown up. The house contained a laboratory for explosives. The houses around the target are always cleared, but it appears that the kid and his family didn't leave their home.

	22-06-2002 01:09									#15
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anyway.. I think that electrical fence is the best idea by far...

	22-06-2002 01:29									#16
	Put an end to popups!

Fences, fences, fences. The best solution, hide.

Bar Lev line, anyone?

	22-06-2002 01:47									#17
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It is like keeping cats and mioce in one cage and not to expect cats to eat the mice... if you want them both to live you have to build something in between.

Electrical fence could work in 90% of the cases for humans.

	22-06-2002 01:48									#18
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

onefoot i like your banana.

	22-06-2002 01:49									#19
	Remove this text

+0

	22-06-2002 01:51									#20
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

might i make a small suggestion concerning your sig:
make the link active in your sig and you will have more hits.
people are so lazy, it's scary. many won't type in, or ever cut and paste the URL into their browsers...

but most are click-happy so if it is active...

	22-06-2002 01:53									#21
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

ah not to threadjack again... good idea

	22-06-2002 02:50									#22
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: The problem is, that the curfew is there for a reason. The reason being, that IDF troops would have easier time, since the assumption is that civilians are obeying the curfew, and most disobeyers are people with malicious intent.

What scares me more is that this guy sees nothing wrong with curfews and house-to-house searches.

	22-06-2002 02:53									#23
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I like the banana, too. It's a better avatar than paiktis'.

	22-06-2002 03:06									#24
	Tired of ads?

why don't we nuke both sides?

	22-06-2002 03:19									#25
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quote: What scares me more is that this guy sees nothing wrong with curfews and house-to-house searches.

Again you prove yourself to be a total jerk.

A curfew (assuming it's kept by the populace) assures that civilians do not get in the middle of gun fights.

It helped to drastically reduce the amount of civilians getting killed. Which is a good thing.


House to house searches, are good because you manage to scan through the entire terrain to find weapons hideouts, and explosives laboratories. This is the basis of rooting out terror infrastructure. Which is a good thing.


Soon you'll tell me that the conquest of Germany in the end of WWII was evil?

	22-06-2002 03:20									#26
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Well Siro, nowadays people believe the Dresdeon bombing was evil, while some still find it necessary (which it wasn't). It's not the same league, but the idea behind the issue is the same.

	22-06-2002 03:35									#27
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Ok, the dresden bombing wasn't nice.

I haven't decided if it was moral yet, but I keep on thinking. (Keep on thinking siro, we know you can do it if you really want to! )

But the war in general.

I mean, wars are not nice! Just like curfews and searches!

	22-06-2002 04:33									#28
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quote: A curfew (assuming it's kept by the populace) assures that civilians do not get in the middle of gun fights. It helped to drastically reduce the amount of civilians getting killed. Which is a good thing.

It removes vital civil liberties, which is always a bad thing. Civilians can decide for themselves if they want to take risks, they don't need Big Brother.

quote: House to house searches, are good because you manage to scan through the entire terrain to find weapons hideouts, and explosives laboratories. This is the basis of rooting out terror infrastructure. Which is a good thing.

They're fine if you get a specific warrant from a judge detailing specifically what is being looked for in every case of a search, and there is reasonable cause to believe something illegal is being done. Otherwise, they are ridiculous limits on liberty.

quote: Soon you'll tell me that the conquest of Germany in the end of WWII was evil?

US involvement was certainly wrong, and any attacks on German civilians were wrong as well, as were restrictions on German civilians.

quote: I haven't decided if it was moral yet, but I keep on thinking.

You haven't yet decided if bombing civilians intentionally was moral or not? That doesn't really seem to be a tough one to me.

quote: I mean, wars are not nice! Just like curfews and searches!

Wait a minute, curfews and searches aren't nice? I thought you said above that they were intended to help civilians? How can that not be nice, unless that is not the real intent?

Further, just because wars are not nice does not justify actions during war.

	22-06-2002 04:46									#29
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You haven't decided if bombing 700 000 civilians without any industrial or military significance is moral or not?

	22-06-2002 04:47									#30
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They were Germans. Bombing Krauts is always moral.