22-06-2002 04:47									#31
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara He's an old man, maybe he wants to see an independent Palestine in his life time. It could be that he knew the Palestinian people wouldn't accept a defeatist plan without first being defeated. Maybe he wanted to be able to say to the Palestinian people "Hey, we tried," so that he won't be assassinated by militants (which he will anyway). It really is a horrible plan.

hi ,

he does not care a rats behind about a pal state , ....

that you can take to the bank , ...

the only thing he wants is to make war , he is part of a group that like to do nothing else then to make war , he live's of that , .....

and then of course lets not forget that he and the people around him are like a poor version of a criminal organisation , .....

they just like to keep the people poor , ...

there is an old saying , "you keep them poor , i keep them stupid" , ......

have a nice day / night

	22-06-2002 04:58									#33
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My question to all parties is this: Why the HELL did it take hundreds of dead Israelis and well over 1000 dead Palestinians in order to even get this glimmer of hope?

Yeah, too little, too late. Blood's in the air and it isn't going to go away until moderates retake command, not only in the leadership, but in the rank-and-file. Right now, extremists have a death grip on the Palestinian soul and the reactionaries have a death grip on the Israeli soul. God, it's a vicious circle. But everyone already knew that.

**clink** Here's a toast to hoping for a miracle. I would so love to see the day when, on Page 1A in my newspaper and in 200 point type I can write the headline: "MIDEAST FINDS PEACE"

Gatekeeper

	22-06-2002 05:12									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov quote: Arafat can't do a damn thing without having moderates on side. He basically has to ask permission before he's allowed to do anything. And who told you that?

You really think some of the hardliners wouldn't be afraid to give him a bullet because hes being to moderate? It really doesn't matter who you put in arafats place, they would be screwed and powerless to stop the fighting.

	22-06-2002 05:22									#35
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara He's an old man, maybe he wants to see an independent Palestine in his life time.

He was an old man who wanted to see an independent Palestine during the Clinton Administration. His response to this very plan was to instigate a war and sink the political hopes of an Israeli PM who was actually interested in negotiation. His hopes of seeing a decent plan are actually worse now than before the current Intifada began.

quote: It really is a horrible plan.

Could you tell me what it was other than the fact that it contained the words "end of conflict" was so bad about the plan?

	22-06-2002 06:29									#36
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Now that he realized that there's not a chance in hell the outside world will help him, and that the israelis aren't going to make peace with him while he screams on to jerusalem, he wants peace.

Life's tough.

	22-06-2002 07:05									#37
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Arafat wants to see a bunch of Israelis killed before he dies. That is all I will say. HE DOESN'T WANT TO SEE PROGRESS IN PEACE CHE. That is where you are wrong. The man is out for blood.

	22-06-2002 07:22									#38
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quote: Could you tell me what it was other than the fact that it contained the words "end of conflict" was so bad about the plan?

It creates little enclaves of Palestinian land. Every Palestinian terroritory (other than the Gaza strip) would be encircled by Israel, and Palestine, in the West Bank, would be divided in 3. You can't make a state from that.

	22-06-2002 07:25									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui It creates little enclaves of Palestinian land.

What does a lack of continuity have to do with the State's viability?

	22-06-2002 07:27									#40
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This looks to me like a PR move. He is only offering this because he knows Sharon won't accept. Now, people will have alot harder time saying that the Jews are willing to make peace but the Pals aren't. And PR is, of course, essential to Arafat's long term goal of peace keepers in the holy land and international intervention.

	22-06-2002 07:28									#41
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Ask Swaziland (which is gulfed up by South Africa). And having a potentially hostile nation enclosing you? HA!

	22-06-2002 07:34									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui And having a potentially hostile nation enclosing you? HA!

Palestine would never have a chance in hell of stopping an Israeli invasion regardless of the continuity between and among its territory. I'm afraid that you'll have to come up with something more substantive.

	22-06-2002 07:37									#43
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Israel can defeat four Arab nations while being outnumbered 10 to 1. You think a small piece of territory could stop an Israeli Invasion... certainly not....

	22-06-2002 07:39									#44
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quote: Palestine would never have a chance in hell of stopping an Israeli invasion regardless of the continuity between and among its territory.

I'm not talking about invasion. I'm talking about getting water, etc, from other states. They'd have to cross Isreali territory as well. And what about buying arms for their army? You think that would be easy?

And that's as substantive as any other reason in the entire world. Countries do not wish to be ringed by potentially hostile nations.

	22-06-2002 07:41									#45
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No it would not be easy for an independent Palestine to conduct government affairs Imran. But do you think they have a choice?

	22-06-2002 07:43									#46
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They just might. Hopefully we'll get a less pro-Israel President in 2004 .

	22-06-2002 07:52									#47
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Imran, this hole viability stuff is bullshit.

If you read the accounts of people who were there, americans or israelis, and even palestinians - the accounts given right after the talks - you would see that the real reasons for not getting peace was Arafat's insistance on the temple mount and refugees.

This whole 'viability' **** was invented after the fact, about a year later, when the Palestinians saw they are losing the PR battle, because the West didn't like it how they waived peace, in exchange for "temple mount" and "refugees".

So they went on, and entered the word 'viable' into their propoganda. It appears far more than any other word. Just count it.

However, it is idiotic, since every one of their claims does not offer a real solution.

They say that a is not viable and b is not viable.

When you take that into consideration - the only option to create a viable palestine, which is independant from israel - is to replace israel with palestine. completely destroy it.

	22-06-2002 07:54									#48
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[a]Countries do not wish to be ringed by potentially hostile nations.[/q]
Hmm... I assume that is why Israel agreed to the 1947 devision plan?

Israel was ready to settle for much less.

The arabs didn't want to.

Now it's their turn to settle.

	22-06-2002 08:33									#49
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My question is

If the plan presented the Pal with a viability problem because they had to cross Isrealie territory, wouldn't the next logical step for the Pal would be to ask that Gaza and the West bank be connected? Which of course would split Israel?

Attachment: pal_map.jpg
This has been downloaded 59 time(s).

	22-06-2002 16:56									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber My question is If the plan presented the Pal with a viability problem because they had to cross Isrealie territory, wouldn't the next logical step for the Pal would be to ask that Gaza and the West bank be connected? Which of course would split Israel?

hi ,

they all ready have serveral roads they can take , ...
it was all in the agreement of Malta , ....

it should be on the same site you got the pic from , ...

have a nice day

	22-06-2002 18:14									#51
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How can anyone even care about what Arafat agrees to? Based on a long string of previous events, he is either a liar (breaks agreements) or he is incapable of restraining his countrymen. My vote: both.

He's irrelevant. Israel needs to ignore Arafat and make all decisions regardless of him. That's the best way to move forward. Only a process-oreiented Euro (see Siro's article) would care about a powerless leader "agreeing" to new terms.

	22-06-2002 18:18									#52
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Sprayber and Imran,

I take the geographic continuity issue seriosly. I doubt that a Pal state can exist with Gaza and WB seperated.

	22-06-2002 18:31									#53
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quote: Originally posted by GP Sprayber and Imran, I take the geographic continuity issue seriosly. I doubt that a Pal state can exist with Gaza and WB seperated.

hi ,

there where a lot of agrements , as on how they are conected , in short they have a big road , like a piece ol land going from one place to the other , .....

if you want to cross the road , there is two options , either above it , or below it , ....

however the road seems to be used for one thing , transport of weapons and hasj , .....

have a nice day

	22-06-2002 19:08									#54
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It's not so much geogaphic continuity that's the problem, since Palestine will be broken into two areas anyway. It's more that Palestine will be broken up into many cantons, that the water will still be under Israel's control, that all Jerusalem will still be part of Isreal (even with Palestinian authority over the holy places and the Arab quarter), that it ignores the status of the refugees, and that it gives no time table for the withdrawl of Israel from a good chunk of Palestine. On top of that, it leaves most of the settlements intact. Basically, this is like Versailles.

	22-06-2002 19:11									#55
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BTW, there are two other countries in a situation like this.... Azerbajian and Armenia... Azerbajian holds an exclave and the only way to get to it is through Armenian Territory. So it is sorta of the same situation. Two hostile countries but they have managed to work it out after a bitter war.

	22-06-2002 19:14									#56
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There's also East and West Pakistan. Whoops!

	22-06-2002 19:19									#57
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It's not so much geogaphic continuity that's the problem, since Palestine will be broken into two areas anyway.

The inevetiability of something makes it not a problem?

	22-06-2002 19:47									#58
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Egypt should get Gaza back, Jordan should get West Bank...

Then national liberation movement for Palestine would have to be fought entirely in Muslim world and Israel would be off the hook...

	22-06-2002 22:12									#59
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actually, I've heard an inerview with a palestinian political figure, of local importance that said that he'd rather have Jordan take care of the west bank . He also said that palestinian media reports of people having a fanatic NATIONALISTIC fervor is wrong.

	22-06-2002 22:21									#60
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I was just kidding, Dalgetti. That wouldn't solve anybody's problems and would create more...