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Grrr is offline Grrr
King
of Hamilton, New-Zealand.
Dec 2000
time: 18:20
  Old Post 23-06-2002 00:39 Visit Grrr's homepage!
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Do YOU think the american democracy is dead? Suffering from ads?

A lot of people recently have been argueing on other forums on how the american democracy has ceased to exist. How Bush seized his way in, and how with 911 it has no become a facist dictatorship.

What do you think.

Kropotkin is offline Kropotkin
Emperor
of Ålidhem
Mar 1999
time: 06:20
  Old Post 23-06-2002 00:44
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As I said before; I'm not an expert on the American system. But there's imho some grave faults with how it works that has deep roots.

To say that Bush has turned it into a dictatorship, however, is just absurd rhetorics. The american presidents have in at least modern times always had a lot of power, so do Bush as it seems.

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:20
  Old Post 23-06-2002 00:51
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It's still working the way it was meant to, although, you may argue that it is a flawed system because it is.

Grrr is offline Grrr
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Dec 2000
time: 18:20
  Old Post 23-06-2002 00:55 Visit Grrr's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Sava
It's still working the way it was meant to, although, you may argue that it is a flawed system because it is.


... ?

Elaborate.

Sava is offline Sava
King
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Mar 2001
time: 23:20
  Old Post 23-06-2002 00:58
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I'm not sure which aspect of the government you are referring to. Bush hasn't done anything that isn't enumerated in the constitution to the executive branch. Remember, the terrorism bills that give the intellegence agencies more power went through Congress before Bush signed them. He didn't just make them law.

The flaws of the system are too many to list. Perhaps you should create another thread for that.

Grrr is offline Grrr
King
of Hamilton, New-Zealand.
Dec 2000
time: 18:20
  Old Post 23-06-2002 01:01 Visit Grrr's homepage!
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I don't think Ming would be to happy with 2 troll threads on the topic.

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:20
  Old Post 23-06-2002 01:04
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This isn't a troll thread. The American government is flawed. I think even Ming will admit to that. I don't think that debating the power/abuses of the executive branch is trolling either. Politicians do it on a daily basis.

Gatekeeper is offline Gatekeeper
King
United States of America
Feb 2000
time: 23:20
  Old Post 23-06-2002 01:09 Visit Gatekeeper's homepage!
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Grrr, et al.:

American democracy is not dead.

The last time I checked, I was still able to vote for a variety of candidates at the local, state and national levels. I am able to debate issues privately and in public without being carried off into the night by government thugs, never to be seen again. I am still able to buy a handgun, rifle or shotgun if I were interested in doing so. We do not have government censors in the newsroom where I work. The Internet isn't censored (ala China). I have hundreds of channels on television and radio that I can listen to, encompassing a wide spectrum of material. I can do my errands without having an unmarked government vehicle trail my every move. I haven't had rocks with threatening messages attached to them thrown through my windows. U.S. Army soldiers are still all-volunteer. And they haven't taken to calling themselves stormtroopers the last time I checked. Not a Brown Shirt in sight, either. Insofar as I can tell, the Senate and House in Washington, D.C., have yet to become rubber stamps for the presidency. People can still gather en masse in public to protest.

Admittedly, some of the developments in John Ashcroft's Justice Department have made me worry a wee bit. Some of the pronoucements by Vice President **** Cheney and Press Secretary Ari Fleischer have made me raise my eyebrows (particularly that crap about "watching what you say"). Some of President George "Dubya" Bush's pronouncements and vocabularly have made me wince.

Is it better to have a completely unfettered democracy that, because of its openness and faith in the individual, goes up in a mushroom cloud the next day? Or is it better to maintain democracy with a more pragmatic approach that, admittedly, can leave one eyeing our leaders in a keener fashion (which might be a *good* thing, IMHO)? It's one of those questions that has no easy answer and has been and always will be debated by those whose goverments allow them to do so.

Gatekeeper

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:20
  Old Post 23-06-2002 02:05 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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American republicanism is not dead. Our democratic traditions, however, are almost comatose. The people are disengaged from the process of self-governence, either because they just don't care, or because they don't feel they have an impact. Corporations more or less control the election process, the courts step in to ensure their favorite candidates get in, the parties are more concerned with winning than ensuring the integrity of the process.

However, voting still makes a difference (we get our choice of corporate vetted candidates), we still have the vast majority of our rights, even if they are slowly being eroded. And most places we have referendum laws, which give us the opportunity to try and take back control. There is hope.

In Maine, Arizona, and several other state, public financing of elections has passed, allowing cnadidates who eschew private financing over a certain level a goodly amount of money. In Maine, about 1/3rd of those elected weren't incumbants.

But let's not be complacent. We have a long way to go before we have a funtioning democratic republic again, and it could always gt worse.

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
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Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:20
  Old Post 23-06-2002 02:11 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
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America is highly democratic compared to the countries I have lived in. You ever see a such apparent vote rigging? Goodness I was in Ecuador when provinces were having elections.

American democracy is far from dead. And probably won't die ever. Corporations are not in control of the election and a new financials reform bill are to prevent that. That bill sounds fine to me. The democratic rights are well preserved in America and won't disappear a bit even with the security step up after 9-11.

You can't kill the corporation to help the people as I usually say.

red_jon is offline red_jon
King
Uni of Wales Swansea
Oct 2000
time: 05:20
  Old Post 23-06-2002 02:14 Visit red_jon's homepage!
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Obviously the US is still a democracy to an extent, but many people over here feel that it is dissappearing, ever since the 2000 elections.

IMO it could get worse, but I don't see the US becoming a dictatorship anytime soon. It should get bettwe when the US falls under Democrat rule again (probably in 6 years time or so).

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
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Apr 2000
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  Old Post 23-06-2002 02:15 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
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It would get worse under a democrat in my honest opinion.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:20
  Old Post 23-06-2002 02:18 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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I doubt it would be any worse under the Dems. They certainly don't respect democracy, hence their base abandoning them, but the Republicans have been actively attempting to thwart democracy. Both parties are thoroughly corrupt and need to be crushed.

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
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Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:20
  Old Post 23-06-2002 02:19 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
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This is from a communist....

Kropotkin is offline Kropotkin
Emperor
of Ålidhem
Mar 1999
time: 06:20
  Old Post 23-06-2002 02:21
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Well, afterall quite a lot of right-winger salute the market reforms of the Democratic Peoples Republic of China.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:20
  Old Post 23-06-2002 02:21 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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Better a communist then an empty headed kid.

CapitanGarlic is offline CapitanGarlic
Prince
no longer.
Jul 2001
time: 22:20
  Old Post 23-06-2002 02:22
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A Democrat, who will get a national surplus again, and then get voted out for doing so, to be followed by another republican who blows it all on some stupid popularity gig *cough tax cut cough*

Seriously, I agree with che about the republic Vs. democracy. The electoral college is a step away from true democracy, and should be eliminated.

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
King
Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:20
  Old Post 23-06-2002 02:22 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
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Got spare money?

Che: Oh nice one. I am not the one empty headed about the welfare of the people.

CapitanGarlic is offline CapitanGarlic
Prince
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Jul 2001
time: 22:20
  Old Post 23-06-2002 02:24
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Still, a two-party system isn't representative enough.

red_jon is offline red_jon
King
Uni of Wales Swansea
Oct 2000
time: 05:20
  Old Post 23-06-2002 02:27 Visit red_jon's homepage!
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REVOLUTION!

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:20
  Old Post 23-06-2002 02:28 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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We're all doin' what we can.

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
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Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:20
  Old Post 23-06-2002 02:28 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
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Reddy: Haha... not in the US and not when I am still alive.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:20
  Old Post 23-06-2002 02:29 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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Fortunately, Fez, you'll have no say in the matter. The plans are almost complete. The revolution is tomorrow at 9AM.

CapitanGarlic is offline CapitanGarlic
Prince
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Jul 2001
time: 22:20
  Old Post 23-06-2002 02:29
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What would we revolve to?

red_jon is offline red_jon
King
Uni of Wales Swansea
Oct 2000
time: 05:20
  Old Post 23-06-2002 02:30 Visit red_jon's homepage!
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That's what you think. Say hello to your new Lord Protector, people

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
King
Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:20
  Old Post 23-06-2002 02:31 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Fortunately, Fez, you'll have no say in the matter. The plans are almost complete. The revolution is tomorrow at 9AM.


Okay, I will have that faxed over to the White House and to my counter-revolutionary office.

Now seriously, there won't be any revolution in the US because it is impossible as 90% of the voters in the US support the two big parties... or something like that.

CapitanGarlic is offline CapitanGarlic
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Jul 2001
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  Old Post 23-06-2002 02:32
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You have an office in the WH, eh?

not bad

red_jon is offline red_jon
King
Uni of Wales Swansea
Oct 2000
time: 05:20
  Old Post 23-06-2002 02:33 Visit red_jon's homepage!
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Personally I think I'd make a brilliant Lord Protector.

CapitanGarlic is offline CapitanGarlic
Prince
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Jul 2001
time: 22:20
  Old Post 23-06-2002 02:35
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Interesting title... does it have a government to go with it, or do you just say 'BOW BEFORE THE LORD PROTECTOR!', speaking in third person?

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
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Apr 2000
time: 02:20
  Old Post 23-06-2002 02:35 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
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Redjon: Personally I would start making plans to move to Switzerland if you would ever become one.

 
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