26-06-2002 23:56									#31
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I asked. A friend of my father's was here . He said he was very sorry for the fact that the Union was broken.

	26-06-2002 23:59									#32
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara There is plenty of corruption in the US, precisely because there is very little accountability. The government only acts when forced, and the media is scared to say anything lest it be sued, or worse, impact the stock prices of their parent holding corporations.

Good observation. Note that Worldcom's auditor was none other than Authur Andersen.

We really need vigorous criminal enforcement against these CEOs, CFOs and their corrupt public auditors. The American people are outraged.

	27-06-2002 00:05									#33
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time to join the dark side, Ned.

	27-06-2002 00:12									#34
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Everyone:

I bet those 17,000 Worldcom employees who are going to lose their jobs soon will have, at least, a short-term problem with capitalism run amok with controls that aren't enforced.

Gatekeeper

	27-06-2002 00:12									#35
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Dal: We who like the free markets are all for strict regulations in place to ensure maximal transparency and honest trade. It's in our interest. Ned would only be heading for the dark side (at least on this issue) if he were an anarchist.

I say more power to the SECs of the world.

	27-06-2002 00:13									#36
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Dalgetti, The debate on communism is endless. In the end it comes down to "equality" vs. "wealth." You cannot have both.

From my point of view, if a people democratically elect a communist government, it is not for us to tell them to change their system. However, most, if not all, Communist systems we saw in the world were not democratically elected, but ruled by force with the extermination of resistance. It is the latter part of the equation that concerned the West.

If you want examples of "democratic" communism, look how Monks live in monasteries, or the Israeli settlers lived in their Kibbutz's. I had a small taste of the former some time ago. I understand your point of view concerning the "benefits" of equality.

	27-06-2002 00:19									#37
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Kibbutzim. ah, another great argument. FOR ME. . Monks? I don't know about them.

Israel , who also had a planned economy , prior to the 70s, had a GDP growth of around 10%, annually , for 20 years!.

	27-06-2002 00:22									#38
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Oh , and the west intervened where it suited it's interests , period. Let's not claim moral superiority for the west here, after numerous cases in which the western governments went in after the government they didn't find was totally adequate for their needs , if you know what I mean. And the debate doesn't end up as "Wealth" vs. "Equality" . I make my claim not for complete equality, but for a planned economy , in which every member of society has an equal chance, and with no private ownership of means of production or services. I am not a pure communist.

	27-06-2002 00:25									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Dalgetti Kibbutzim. ah, another great argument. FOR ME. . Monks? I don't know about them. Israel , who also had a planned economy , prior to the 70s, had a GDP growth of around 10%, annually , for 20 years!.

Perhaps, then, Israel should really be studied by economists.

To some extent, Japan, Inc., got to where it is today by being "planned." However, they ran out of gas about 10 years ago.

After the change from planning to free-market, how has Israel done?

	27-06-2002 00:29									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Dalgetti Oh , and the west intervened where it suited it's interests , period. Let's not claim moral superiority for the west here, after numerous cases in which the western governments went in after the government they didn't find was totally adequate for their needs , if you know what I mean. And the debate doesn't end up as "Wealth" vs. "Equality" . I make my claim not for complete equality, but for a planned economy , in which every member of society has an equal chance, and with no private ownership of means of production or services. I am not a pure communist.

This is what a monastery is all about. The Order owns all means of production. All monks are equal. They all share equally. Etc., etc., etc.

I don't know if there are any monasteries in Israel. But you might want to find out and go visit.

	27-06-2002 00:30									#41
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Israel gets huge influxes of subsidy from the US. Both the government and American Jewry. Also the population has grown quite a bit.

But do you really claim a CAGR of 10% over the last 20 plus years?

	27-06-2002 00:31									#42
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It was rather well done. But now , we're going down , with the global ship. Unemployment rises , the currency has slipped quite a bit, and the taxes were slightly raised, as were the interest rates ,to halt the dolar's rise.

	27-06-2002 00:36									#43
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Israel was NOT aided before 67' . World jewery did help, but it's contribution is rather pitiful. First we pushed agricultural production to europe , and texitiles . Then plastics , and chemical products , diamonds .

GP , that's the point . not in the last 20 capitalist years, but in the first 20 socialist democratic ( note , not social-democratic , i.e. democratic capitalist ) years.

	27-06-2002 01:34									#44
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I think that TRANSPARENCY is the word, and that is hard to implement, as there are always interests to hide the facts.

And free market encourages greed but there are also laws in place that try to keep things under control, laws are decent, but transparency is bad. Auditors basically hold a global oligopoly and that could be questionable too as there is noone to go after they have approved the books - and they might have good relationship with their customers and various other interests thet might prevent them bringing facts to surface, appart from possible incompetency and too little time spent checking the books.

It is very easy for millions to slip under the rug in multibillion dollar corporations.

	27-06-2002 01:48									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Adalbertus Chegitz, I think extreme corruption is one of the few things you can't accuse the Nazis of. On the other hand, you had no chance not being member of the party (what a difference to communist countries :rolleyes, and for fuelling the war, the regime took money where they could (i. e. also from the savings of the population). But overall I think it wasn't worse than in today's western democracies.

Actually I can. The Nazi Party had an unofficial tax on the big capitalists, whih they happily paid as the Nazis lowered corporate taxes considerably. The Nazis then turned around and gave massive contracts to their contributors, much like in the US today.

You didn't have to be a member of the Nazi Party, but if you were a smaller capitalist it helped. Schindler's List is an excellent movie about the subservience of the Nazis to the capitalists. He was able to marh into Auschwitz and demand (and buy) his workers back. Don't tell me that the Nazis weren't corrupt.

And then there's all the looting of Jews and foreign treasures.

	27-06-2002 02:03									#46
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and a huge loan from seemingly neutral swiss banks.

	27-06-2002 02:11									#47
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Sorry, Chegitz, but this is what I still would see as "normal level". All the intellectual property laws are for those who can afford to pay and not for those with the brilliant wits. And so many other examples. Legal corruption in my eyes.

Looting Jews and foreign treasures is not corruption but theft (which makes it by no means better).

Edit: About the chances outside the party: It depended on your job. A lawyer who had not the money to buy benevolence otherwise had to be in the party, and likewise some other professions. Not the average carpenter, however. A pupil who was not in the Hitlerjugend could very often forget good marks at school (depending on the school, however).

	27-06-2002 02:13									#48
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So you're just defining the problem away.

	27-06-2002 02:15									#49
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I thought corruption could be things like Goering getting materials and labour diverted from the war effort to build him a new country home, and other similar excesses from the leadership.

	27-06-2002 02:18									#50
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I meant to include that. There's an excellent book on the subject, Big Business and Fascism, by a French anarchist, Daniel Guerin. Check it out, Aldabertus.

	27-06-2002 02:18									#51
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They already had their country homes. They didn't need corruption for that.

	27-06-2002 02:22									#52
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Not really, but in relation to other countries/systems I think it is not extraordinary. And I'm still sure that theft != corruption.
The example of Garth Vader is corruption. But I doubt there is any country which is free of things like that.

	27-06-2002 03:01									#53
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Dalgetti. The Nazis didn't start out being rich. They became rich after taking the government. Georing and Hitler were out of work bums. Himler was a chicken farmer. BY the time the war started, the party leaders were all wealthy men.

	27-06-2002 03:11									#54
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CQ, Is Castro wealthy?

	27-06-2002 03:14									#55
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Nope. He might have guaranteed food, and a ride, and a nice little one bedroom apartment, but I wouldn't say he's wealthy. I did see a 60 Minutes report many years back, however, about the party elite living in the old mansions of the former elite. This was before the USSR pulled the subsidies though.

I should note, however, that Castro came from a very wealthy family, and if wealth and power were all he wanted, becoming a revolutionary wasn't a good way to go about it.

	27-06-2002 03:37									#56
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I think the whole problem with America's capitalistic economy is its attitude of laissez-faire, basically letting the market do whatever it wants and thinking that everthing will turn itself right again.

NOT SO!!!

We are finding that with this unrestricted view on the economy, the "Big Businesses" are shifting the market to suit their needs, wants, and expectations. This corruption is evident in the U.S. news today.

With this "outside influence" the CEO's of these companies are influencing politicians to pass legislative bills to help make them more money...it is this corruption that has seeped so deeply into American politics/economy that many of us are now becoming aware and sick of. The top 5% of the wealthy are basically helping each other out and aren't even considering the people below them, much to our dismay.

Now, I'm not a 100% supporter of communism because, quite frankly, the basic root of communism is violence. I believe that instead of violence, we should use our government the way its supposed to....if we don't like how somethings going, we change it. Simple. Unfortunately, "big business" has more resources than us and we tend to get squashed.

But, one quote comes to mind with "big business"-

quote: When you get to the top of the mountain, the only way you can go is back down.

Examples: Enron, Worldcom, ImClone (sp?), e..t..c...,

	27-06-2002 03:45									#57
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quote: We DIDN'T starve.

Tell that to Ukrainians . And what was with those lines for bread?

quote: Israel , who also had a planned economy , prior to the 70s, had a GDP growth of around 10%, annually , for 20 years!.

Because you were building from NOTHING. Of course you are going to have huge GDP growth rates when you start industrialzing an area. Look at the USSR under Stalin? 20% Growth! Amazing people said, but it was all taking technology already discovered in the west and applying it to a undeveloped economy. It petered out by the 70s and 80s, where growth was very low.

	27-06-2002 03:49									#58
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quote: Originally posted by frankychan I think the whole problem with America's capitalistic economy is its attitude of laissez-faire, basically letting the market do whatever it wants and thinking that everthing will turn itself right again. NOT SO!!! We are finding that with this unrestricted view on the economy, the "Big Businesses" are shifting the market to suit their needs, wants, and expectations. This corruption is evident in the U.S. news today. With this "outside influence" the CEO's of these companies are influencing politicians to pass legislative bills to help make them more money...it is this corruption that has seeped so deeply into American politics/economy that many of us are now becoming aware and sick of. The top 5% of the wealthy are basically helping each other out and aren't even considering the people below them, much to our dismay. Now, I'm not a 100% supporter of communism because, quite frankly, the basic root of communism is violence. I believe that instead of violence, we should use our government the way its supposed to....if we don't like how somethings going, we change it. Simple. Unfortunately, "big business" has more resources than us and we tend to get squashed. But, one quote comes to mind with "big business"- Examples: Enron, Worldcom, ImClone (sp?), e..t..c...,

Well, franky, the commies were very good at getting at the root of corporate corruption. You could often see the bodies of the capitalist pig looters slowly twisting in the wind at the end of a rope.

Well, the way a lot of American feel today about Enron, ImClone and Wordcom, perhaps we ought to emulate the communists at least in terms of remedies.

	27-06-2002 04:46									#59
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Despite my rhetoric sometimes, I'd rather the death penalty be abolished before we despose of the capitalists.

	27-06-2002 04:51									#60
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You traitor to the cause!!