26-06-2002 19:03									#1
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First Enron, and now Worldcom......how many other companies are gonna pull this BS? Our goverment is so freaking corrupted that these people steal/drive millions into bankrupcy, and get away with it.....

	26-06-2002 19:05									#2
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It's hardly the fault of capitalism.

Socialism is more corrupted.

	26-06-2002 19:08									#3
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Who said im a socialist? I think I'd go for englightened despot......its the only form of goverment I can see really working without corruption all throughout it, but not very many despots are englightened.

	26-06-2002 19:08									#4
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A few facts:

Capitalism=greed

Socialism=equality

Bodds=idiot

	26-06-2002 19:09									#5
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I agree with Boddinton's .. The difference between Capitalism and Socialist economies is corruption is eventually discovered (hence Enron and worldcom) however under planned/socialist economies, the state keeps filling the gap, and the corruption is never seen.

Of course, there is a huge difference between communist planned economy, and a European social democratic economy which is capitalistic, but with social safeguards .. I consider that capitalism

	26-06-2002 19:14									#6
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"Socialism=equality"

Capitalism = equal opportunity

If you say that everyone will be equal no matter what, where is the incentive in socialism to work harder?

	26-06-2002 19:15									#7
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it's called GULAG bodds

	26-06-2002 19:15									#8
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Equal opportunity is bollocks, children of rich people have much better opportunities than the children of poor people in a capitalist society.

	26-06-2002 19:15									#9
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How so is capitalism greed ??

an Enlightened despot could not run a modern economy, he would still have to rely on his loyal servants .. who in turn will rely on their loyal servants .. until everybody is covered .. and all it takes is 1 individual to corrupt the entire branch .. it is simply not possible.

	26-06-2002 19:15									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Kamrat X Socialism=equality

Equality of misery, you mean.

quote: Bodds=idiot

Uncomfortable truths are sometimes called lies and trolling to spare the accusers fragile ego.

	26-06-2002 19:15									#11
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The Viceroy : There was a problem with soviet style communism, with corruption. The problem started after stalin took off. After Stalin went to hell, there was no mechanism of accountability. During stalin, that mechanism was fear , quite simply. Later , there was no feedback to replace it . As my father said, this was the problem of the soviet union , later. But the real problem of the SU was its defence spending.

	26-06-2002 19:16									#12
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH Equal opportunity is bollocks, children of rich people have much better opportunities than the children of poor people in a capitalist society.

This might be true at the moment, but we're not living in a capitalist system.

	26-06-2002 21:15									#13
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Dicatorships tend to be far more corrupt than governments in which there is some form of accountablity. The Nazi and Fascist governments of Germany and Italy were among the most corrupt governments ever. Latin American dicatorships, etc. all thoroughly corrupt.

There is plenty of corruption in the US, precisely because there is very little accountability. The government only acts when forced, and the media is scared to say anything lest it be sued, or worse, impact the stock prices of their parent holding corporations.

	26-06-2002 22:02									#14
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I think we should separate the concepts of capitalism from free enterprise. Today's form of capitalism is really tyranny by the greedy. If greed is going to be a factor then it ought to at least be kept under control. Socialism is not the answer but enforcing existing laws can help.

	26-06-2002 22:15									#15
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Capitalism, Communism, Democracy....

They're all really bad jokes that someone took way too serious at some point in the past and we've all suffered the result since.

Bring back despotism! At least that was honest. And look at rule under Napoleon - no despot can come to power without at least SOME support, so it's still democratic. And if you kill anyone who opposes you then there's one hell of a lot less in-fighting.

So long as the despot is an honest, good leader then everyone wins! And whenever people fight to overthrow the leader it gives them something exciting and interesting to do with their time.

	26-06-2002 22:17									#16
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Capitalism just needs to be regulated more. All these big companies are like little kids. The bigger ones will pick on the little ones and take things. You need a parent to smack them all and send them to their rooms without desert.

	26-06-2002 22:20									#17
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What's that Winston Churchill quote...

"Democracy is the worst system yet devised of ruling a country....except for all the others."

	26-06-2002 22:44									#18
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I think a Liberal Dictatorship would work. Grant citizens full civil rights, aside from the right to vote. Then make me emperor.

	26-06-2002 22:56									#19
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We dont need any more government regulation. What we need is enforcement of the existing laws.

	26-06-2002 22:58									#20
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And to hang Kenneth Lay.

	26-06-2002 22:59									#21
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If found guilty (of course)

	26-06-2002 23:00									#22
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Kamrat X is - almost - spot on. Socialism is starvation and labour camps to death for all. Except of course, for the party elite, which all commies imagine they will be, overwhelming historical evidence to the contrary.

As for the Enron and WorlCom scandals - a free market needs strong, enforcable regulations and as much transparency as you can get. My guess is more funding to SEC - one government agency that meets any capitalist's full approval! - and fixing the amazing loophole in US GAAP implementations will do a lot more to fix this than all the political hot air in the world.

Now, campaign funding, there's a real political problem for the Yanks to deal with. Unsurprisingly, none of the two parties seems keen to get work done on that.

	26-06-2002 23:08									#23
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quote: Kamrat X is - almost - spot on. Socialism is starvation and labour camps to death for all. Except of course, for the party elite, which all commies imagine they will be, overwhelming historical evidence to the contrary.

you ignore what most ex-soviet posters have been telling for a very long time. We DIDN'T starve. We had a regular life, but WE didn't have poor people, and we didn't have homeless people . You don't know **** , therefor don't speak and don't judge. I was born in the USSR, I have the right to talk about how good or how bad it was . you don't. now shut up.

	26-06-2002 23:16									#24
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What about the gulags?

	26-06-2002 23:20									#25
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Yeah - I'm no fan of the Soviet Union but it's amazing how so many people cannot tell they aren't spouting Cold War propaganda...

	26-06-2002 23:25									#26
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Amazingly, you still found it wise to leave this commie land of plenty to go risk your life against Muslim fanatics and terrorists daily in Israel. Either you're deeply irrational or you're using a wee bit to much colour in painting your Soviet canvas.

So spare us your little indigantion rants about having some higher insights 'bout the Soviet Union, will ya?

Mozjet bytj, tovarisch Dalgetti, szto ty uzje mongo zabyl ob zjizni v Sovjetskom Sojuze.

	26-06-2002 23:30									#27
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Dalgetti was born in c. 1984. I doubt that much of his thinking life was in Cold War USSR. BTW, amazing how many Jews wanted to get the hell out of USSR...

	26-06-2002 23:40									#28
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My father was born in 1940 . His thoughts are similar to mine, on the issues of the soviet union. We often argue , and discuss, the reason of it's failure.

Moomin: I left the soviet union when it collapsed. I don't have a choice of living there now , do I ?

Edit: I shall not let this discussion go to complete personal attacks, such as the discussions between Ron Jeremy and moomin. my apologies.

Last edited by Az on 26-06-2002 at 23:55

	26-06-2002 23:51									#29
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I also can remember that during the late seventies and eighties (especially after a bad harvest in Ukraine) Western contries (especially the US) donated/cheaply sold lots of wheat to the USSR ....

Chegitz, I think extreme corruption is one of the few things you can't accuse the Nazis of. On the other hand, you had no chance not being member of the party (what a difference to communist countries :rolleyes, and for fuelling the war, the regime took money where they could (i. e. also from the savings of the population). But overall I think it wasn't worse than in today's western democracies.

About Russia: Corruption is a problem Russia suffered since (at least, I don't know about earlier) the 18th century to today, with a break in Stalin's times (I'd prefer corruption in this case). I think it's in the people and they'll have to struggle hard to get rid of it, similarly to Italy (and the Italians have at least started to fight, and still not yet won after 15 or 20 years )

	26-06-2002 23:52									#30
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Why don't you ask some Russians which system was better? Ask them which system they'd rather live in. Todays, or 20 years ago.