30-06-2002 06:13									#391
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Mandatory or not, every time a public school teacher says "under God", it is instilling Abrahamic faith in American children.

That, to me, sounds like "establishing religion." Granted, you disagree, but surely we can agree that the government has no business whatsoever in promoting any particular faith or group of faiths to its citizens, and certainly not its most impressionable citizens, children who are the least able to resist this indoctrination?

	30-06-2002 06:28									#392
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Gee, so what if the Constitution itself is unconstitutional? That would be a bit of a paradox wouldn't it?

	30-06-2002 06:30									#393
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Mandatory or not, every time a public school teacher says "under God", it is instilling Abrahamic faith in American children.

You don't seriously believe that, do you?

	30-06-2002 06:32									#394
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I do. Seriously, now: what if they said "with no God"?

	30-06-2002 06:36									#395
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I do.

Can you tell me, without laughing, how saying the pledge, singing the Star Spangled Banner, spending American money, and taking off work for Christmas is going to bring someone to know God? I'd really like to know.

quote: Seriously, now: what if they said "with no God"?

The issue would be the same.

	30-06-2002 06:37									#396
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Gee, so what if the Constitution itself is unconstitutional? That would be a bit of a paradox wouldn't it?

Well, it isn't, seeing how God is never mentioned in the entire document, nor any of the amendments.

This article may help:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/773696.asp

I'm also fond of:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002...ain513567.shtml

	30-06-2002 06:39									#397
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I forgot what SC decision it was (I will look it up if you want) but the dissenting opinion stated that by excluding religion from society the state was in effect establishing atheism. Either way someone is going to be offended. Regardless of what religion Eisenhower wished to promote in his own mind the fact remains that he used a generic word in the pledge which means different things to different people.

So to make that phrase illegal now is to say in effect that Eisenhower was not allowed to think about his own God when he thought of the idea. The word "God" is allowed all through official government traditions. If the word "God" cannot be used in the pledge then it must be redacted as well from Congress and the opening ceremony of the Supreme Court.

So while the intention may have been to promote the God of Abraham the wording does not say that. We should not punish a thought.

	30-06-2002 06:40									#398
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Can you tell me, without laughing, how saying the pledge, signing the Star Spangled Banner, spending American money, and taking off work for Christmas is going to bring someone to know God? I'd really like to know

Like the court said: it's normative. I get uncomfortable at the point in Canada's national anthem where we mention God, because I feel a bit off singing something about a deity I don't believe in. I think we should change those lyrics too...

quote: The issue would be the same.

You wouldn't feel that it was reducing the faith of children who did believe? To have their teacher saying that God didn't exist?

	30-06-2002 06:41									#399
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Can you tell me, without laughing, how saying the pledge, signing the Star Spangled Banner, spending American money, and taking off work for Christmas is going to bring someone to know God? I'd really like to know.

Perhaps you'd like to know how marginalized people like me feel in this country because of all that bullshit.

If we have these principles, we better damn well live up to them. Otherwise, what the hell is the point of having principles?

When I have children, I don't want the government telling them how my wife and I are wrong about our religious practices (or lack thereof; I recognize that atheism is a religion in its own way).

quote: The issue would be the same.

That's right. It would be the same. I'd be pushing just as hard to end that too.

	30-06-2002 06:45									#400
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc You don't seriously believe that, do you?

Of course I do! Not that it matters as far as the principle of the thing goes, but these people are more than government employees. These are authority figures. If my kids hear their teachers mention this "God" entity day in and day out, not to mention Congress and the Supreme Court and the VERY religious, VERY Christian inauguration of GWBush, what the hell sort of effect do you think its going to have on kids?

	30-06-2002 07:18									#401
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Incidentally, what are you planning on specializing in during your residency?

	30-06-2002 07:18									#402
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Perhaps you'd like to know how marginalized people like me feel in this country because of all that bullshit.

Yes, and many of them feel marginalized at the mere continuanace of religion. The guy who filed the suit about the pledge mentioned in an interview that he'd like to remove any artifice of religion from monetary notes and government buildings. This will amount to defacing works of art. Sorta reminds you of a middle eastern goverment our troops recently ejected from power doesn't it?

Mary McCarthy, the woman who filed the suit that ended prayer in public school once stated intention to work towards the destruction of every outward edifice of religion in our society, because she felt offended by the mere sight of a church.

	30-06-2002 07:35									#403
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Incidentally, what are you planning on specializing in during your residency?

Not a clue. Barely a day goes by that someone doesn't ask that question.

	30-06-2002 07:39									#404
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Yes, and many of them feel marginalized at the mere continuanace of religion. The guy who filed the suit about the pledge mentioned in an interview that he'd like to remove any artifice of religion from monetary notes and government buildings. This will amount to defacing works of art. Sorta reminds you of a middle eastern goverment our troops recently ejected from power doesn't it? Mary McCarthy, the woman who filed the suit that ended prayer in public school once stated intention to work towards the destruction of every outward edifice of religion in our society, because she felt offended by the mere sight of a church.

I am not offended by religion. What I am offended by is religious intrusion into government. Religion wasn't on our paper money before 1956. As one of the articles I cited states, our national motto was changed from "E Pluribus Unum" to "In God We Trust". Balls, balls, balls. It was wrong then, and it's wrong to continue it now.

I think the Taliban analogy is far too flawed to waste any time formulating a reponse.

	30-06-2002 08:40									#405
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quote: Such as?

The Whiskey Tax and the creation of the Bank of the US, for instance.

quote: A state church having immense power and sway.

Why would the state chuch have undue power and sway unless the church was given preferential treatment?

	02-07-2002 15:41									#406
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Well, I'm late on this one, been over at Newsmax debating this one.

The Pledge is unconstitutional because:

Government cannot compel or coerce citizens to affirm a belief in God or anything else.

Public school children are coerced into taking the Pledge because of peer pressure - being singled out as non-conformists - and because the teacher is the one instructing the children to take the Pledge.

Little children just don't have the luxury of possibly crossing the teacher or making themselves targets from classmates. And compelling the children of parents who don't believe in God or monotheism to affirm a belief they don't share is immoral. If the Pledge would have children affirm a belief in NO god, how would religious folks feel?

	02-07-2002 15:59									#407
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Just drop the "under God".... geez... it's two little words that were added during the 50's.

	02-07-2002 19:45									#408
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Beserker, I don't know that your statements are really valid as to the Pledge being unconstitutional, but they are certainly a reason the practice should be discontinued.

Check out my little tale on page 15 (near the top), and you'll see I'm in complete agreement with points 2 & 3 of your post.

	04-07-2002 15:14									#409
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Fitz, the 1st Amendment begins with the words, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion". The Pledge as currently written does respect an establishment of religion by coercing people to say it, to affirm a belief in God. It would be no different than requiring people to affirm a belief in Allah, Jupiter, or Jesus. And we all know which God the pledge refers to.

I object to the pledge more because it declares the USA to be "indivisible". Hell, the Founders and the Confederacy fought wars for the right to secede and I consider that indivisible part to be an insult to the Founders. Furthermore, the Republicrats are lying when they take the pledge, they don't believe in either liberty or justice for all...