28-06-2002 03:52									#301
	Got spare money?

quote: Imran, are you also saying that the Constitution allows the government to outlaw specific religions, as long as it doesn't found its own?

No, because that would 'prohibit free excersize thereof'.

quote: None of those involve the semantics of a powerless measure of Congress.

A powerless measure of Congress? It is a very powerful measure.

quote: Hence the free exercise clause. The danger of an official church stamping out others is nullified by that. But why does the establishment clause exist then?

You can have free excersize even with an official church (see England today).

--

Question: If Congress cannot make a law about religion, does that mean then that student led prayer sessions on school grounds are legal? The government should not allow that to be illegal. Because a student led prayer session is about religion (thus no law banning it).

	28-06-2002 03:53									#302
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse And it can also denote a belief of a certain segment of the population, as in an established social order...

No. "Established" in an "established social order" does not refer to the belief in the order, but simply denotes that such a social order can be defined.

	28-06-2002 03:56									#303
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: A powerless measure of Congress? It is a very powerful measure

How?

quote: You can have free excersize even with an official church (see England today).

Which is my point. Having Anglican church as the state church is a powerless law since religious freedom is guaranteed in the UK.

quote: does that mean then that student led prayer sessions on school grounds are legal

It alwaays has been, unless the prayer is forced...

	28-06-2002 03:56									#304
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: No, because that would 'prohibit free excersize thereof'

Then your argument about cannibals or human sacrificers is null and void.

	28-06-2002 04:00									#305
	Got spare money?

quote: Question: If Congress cannot make a law about religion, does that mean then that student led prayer sessions on school grounds are legal? The government should not allow that to be illegal. Because a student led prayer session is about religion (thus no law banning it)

As long as it's held outside of official class time, I have no problem with it (also it's required that school show no preference for making resources available to different groups).

	28-06-2002 04:00									#306
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Establishment must be a noun. There's an "an" preceding establishment.

Congress shall make no law regarding a 'breaking' of bread.

Is breaking a noun in that sentance?

quote: Why not? Anyways, by promoting monotheism, you promote all monotheistic religions.

Is says 'an' establishment of religion, right? 'An' means one. (look below)

quote: Like if Congress made a law pushing forward Christianity at the expense of Islam. Neither is a single religious establishment; they're conglomerations of different churches with similar beliefs.

Pushing forward isn't illegal. Hell, it is done all the time. You can say Congress pushes forward Christianity by allowing Christian universities access to public scholarships.

--

Would you say that federal aid to private religious universities is illegal (ie, federal loans and grants). Would say providing a military chaplain is illegal?

You do realize that the First Congress opened each session with a prayer and voted to give money to Christian missions. How can it be said they wanted to forbid Congress from passing any law about religion?

	28-06-2002 04:01									#307
	Support Apolyton

We should just get rid of the pledge and the national anthem all together. These are stupid and meaningless traditions. For some reason at my sons t-ball game they play a tape of the national anthem and everyone stands up takes off their hat and continues with their conversions like nothing was happening. Now there's true feeling.

	28-06-2002 04:01									#308
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: "Congress shall make no law regarding a 'breaking' of bread. Is breaking a noun in that sentance?"

That sentence is grammatically incorrect.

	28-06-2002 04:03									#309
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Pushing forward isn't illegal. Hell, it is done all the time. You can say Congress pushes forward Christianity by allowing Christian universities access to public scholarships

Only if they didn't allow Muslim universities access to scholarships.

	28-06-2002 04:05									#310
	Put an end to popups!

Imran, if they say the pledge in class time, then they also should have to say one which includes the phrase "with no God" and one with "under the gods". The phrase was inserted as a deliberate exercise in religious zeal in 1954. There's no reason nor right for it to be there.

	28-06-2002 04:08									#311
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Which is my point. Having Anglican church as the state church is a powerless law since religious freedom is guaranteed in the UK.

It was guarenteed in the age of the Puritans too, but the Official Church persecuted them just the same. You don't think the government persecuted the Puritans do you?

quote: It alwaays has been, unless the prayer is forced...

No it hasn't. Many states have forbidden after-school prayer sessions (which would be wrong, because it would be a law against religion, right?).

--

Also Christmas is an illegal public holiday, isn't it?

	28-06-2002 04:12									#312
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Many states have forbidden after-school prayer sessions (which would be wrong, because it would be a law against religion, right?).

Yes.

	28-06-2002 04:16									#313
	Got spare money?

quote: The phrase was inserted as a deliberate exercise in religious zeal in 1954. There's no reason nor right for it to be there.

No **** sherlock.

quote: Only if they didn't allow Muslim universities access to scholarships.

Scholarships can only go to accredited schools, IIRC. So some schools (that aren't good enough) might be left out, which means some schools which are picked are religious.

Also what about the famous case where the school prohibited a graduation speaker from speaking because her speech was a religious speech. Isn't that 'about religion'?

	28-06-2002 04:18									#314
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

What about Christmas, KH? Should Christmas be ruled as an unconstitutional public holiday? Should government funds to religious orders to fight poverty or go into prisions be declared unconstitutional? Should resolutions which say 'Merry Eid' or 'Happy Hanukkah' or Merry Christmas' passed by Congress be unconstitutional?

	28-06-2002 04:23									#315
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Now you're just blathering. I couldn't care less about that. They're probably unconstitutional, but also unimportant. Most Christians wouldn't care if the Congress signed acts wishing people a happy Holi, but they would care if their child was exposed daily to a pledge that contained something about one natin under Vishnu.

	28-06-2002 04:23									#316
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Btw, read the definition of 'Establishment' again. How does that defintion (any of it) lead to meaning 'about'

	28-06-2002 04:25									#317
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Now you're just blathering. I couldn't care less about that. They're probably unconstitutional, but also unimportant. Most Christians wouldn't care if the Congress signed acts wishing people a happy Holi, but they would care if their child was exposed daily to a pledge that contained something about one natin under Vishnu.

Maybe they would care, but so what?

You might not care less about the greater ramifications of making the clause mean what you want it to mean, but other people certainly are. It isn't just limited, KH. It will deal with EVERYTHING.

	28-06-2002 04:26									#318
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Btw, read the definition of 'Establishment' again. How does that defintion (any of it) lead to meaning 'about'

It doesn't. Regarding means about. Establishment of religion is a fancy term for "religion.

	28-06-2002 04:27									#319
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Blah blah blah. So what. If somebody cares enough to take it to the Supremes, so be it. I couldn't care less one way or the other.

	28-06-2002 04:33									#320
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Establishment of religion a fancy term for religion?!! Are you nuts? An Establishment of religion (by the definition, if a noun) can either mean the religious organization (which then would mean the Congress could not make laws about specific religious organizations - 'an establishment' means one organization), the controlling powers of religion (which means Congress cannot make a law against the leaders of religious organizations), or the act of establishing (which means Congress cannot make a law declaring a state religion).

Fitz stated, if we used #3, I'd be right. Even if you use definiton #1, it is severly restricted to 'one' religious organization (cannot single one church out, perhaps), and #2 makes no sense.

In either case, this does not apply. Like I said before monotheism isn't ONE church.

	28-06-2002 04:34									#321
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Blah blah blah. So what. If somebody cares enough to take it to the Supremes, so be it. I couldn't care less one way or the other.

And I couldn't care less about 'God We Trust' on our money .

	28-06-2002 05:17									#322
	Bush admits that Pledge of Allegiance sends a religious message but still supports it Increase the size of your Attachments

OK, not explicitly, but he still implies that with his words:

quote: Taken from http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS...edge/index.html Bush said the ruling from a panel with the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals in California ignored the fact that the Declaration of Independence acknowledged "we receive our rights from God." He said the court's decision was proof of the need for "common-sense judges" who "understand we derive our rights from God."

This essentially says that he acknowledges that the Pledge of Allegiance sends the message that "liberty and justice for all" come from God and is thus a religious pledge, but still supports it! Even for supporters of the Pledge, I would think this would be going too far, the main argument against the ruling is that it doesn't send a message but if it did it should be banned.

	28-06-2002 05:22									#323
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Count on California to have an out of body/out of mind viewpoint.

	28-06-2002 05:53									#324
	Suffering from ads?

It is so refereshing to be on the same side as Imran again in a debate.

	28-06-2002 07:49									#327
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

So, I just returned from this Knight of Columbus meeting and this was a big topic. Especially since they were the ones who originally came up with the idea of putting God in the pledge 50 years ago. My family is also Family of the Month for May. This is quite funny to me, as I hate my parents and I'm a Buddhist.

	28-06-2002 07:53									#328
	Increase the size of your Attachments

That's funny Lincoln.

A gold star to whomever can identify the prominent politican who said this about 15 years ago: "No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."

	28-06-2002 07:58									#329
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

hmmm...Bush senior maybe?

	28-06-2002 07:59									#330
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

If you can show me where that quote was reported in a credible paper, I'd be willing to pay you money.