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Nethog
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Canton, MI, USA
May 2001
time: 00:20
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Version 1.00 of "Nethog's Civ2 Reference Pack" is now available at my website at http://mywebpages.comcast.net/pmm1/games/games.html
The file is available as both a native Powerpoint 2000 document and as a PDF file.
The reference pack contains 6 summary pages each printable on a 8.5"x11" sheet of paper:
(1) Tech Tree (yes really fits on one page!)
(2) City Improvements Summary
(3) Wonders Summary
(4) Units and Combat Modifiers summary (as well as other misc info)
(5) Terrain Chart
(6) Governments Summary
Check it out! - you will be astounded at the amount of information regarding Civ2 contained on each page.
Please post all feedback in this thread.
(BTW, I will be on vacation from June 28th thru July 7th - so I will be unable to respond to any questions during this period)
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Marquis de Sodaq
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... no, a Marquis.
Jul 2000
time: 23:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Scouse Gits
Communism is corruption and waste free, except for a strange glitch when your capital or SSC has trade arrows approaching 100 ... then there is sometimes just one arrow lost to corruption. Otherwise no waste or corruption in commie.
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A communist city will experience corruption at the 64th trade arrow, the 94th if it has a courthouse. That is, indeed, approaching 100.  Perhaps a glitch, but a reliable one. IIRC, there is also a shield lost at that point, too. So it is actually ~1% waste. Edit: For example, a commie city producing 192 arrows will have 3 lost to corruption, 2 if it has a courthouse.
Fundamentalism does not have this waste.
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Nethog
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Canton, MI, USA
May 2001
time: 00:20
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Quote by Marquis de Sodaq:
quote:
A communist city will experience corruption at the 64th trade arrow, the 94th if it has a courthouse. That is, indeed, approaching 100. Perhaps a glitch, but a reliable one. IIRC, there is also a shield lost at that point, too. So it is actually ~1% waste. Edit: For example, a commie city producing 192 arrows will have 3 lost to corruption, 2 if it has a courthouse.
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So my chart is accurate on this point except I should probably reword it to state C&W is "virtually zero" under Communism.
Quote by Scouse Gits:
quote:
... A city in celebration [under Communism] will enjoy the corruption and waste of a Fundamentalist government This is wrong |
Well since the normal C&W rate is "virtually zero" under Communism, then in fact during celebrations it is still zero, i.e. like Fundy, however there is no need to state this, so yes I can remove it. Out of curiousity, does the "virtually zero" corruption and waste seen under Commie actually become "absoultely zero" when a Commie govt is celebrating?
A general comment on C&W during celebrations for Anarchy, Despotism, and Monarchy - I don't recall seeing anything in the Manual on this, but I got these comments from an experienced player on another web site. Has anyone here observed the effects of WLT_ days on C&W, and does this match my chart?
Quote by Scouse Gits:
quote:
A city celebrating [under Communism] enjoys the double trade arrows of a representative government
when a Fundamentalist government celebrates...an extra trade arrow on all squares that generate them |
The manual does state that cities under Commie and Fundy that are celebrating collect resources like a Republic. However, an experienced player on another web site claims the manual is wrong, and the extra arrow is not collected. Can anyone here say with certainty what is correct?
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I will be glad to make any required changes to improve the accuracy of my reference pack. If we can sort out my questions above by tomorrow (i.e. June 27th), I can put up a new version of the ref pack before I leave for a week's vacation. If we can't, any changes will have to wait until July 8th, when I return.
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Starlifter
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Seattle's Rain....
Jun 2002
time: 21:20
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Hi All,
It's my first post here, because it takes 3 to 5 minutes per page to DL at this site . It took 10 minutes to write this, and two hours and counting to try and post it... ugh.
Nethog sent me a note at CFC and said there was some notes about Gov't C&W, etc. here in regards to his pack. After reading the thread I can say that the issue of C&W in Communism is Very Low.... well, maybe Extremely Low is a better term for it! I posted a suggested wording change to that effect earlier today, for his 1.01 revision.
If you don't mind a lot of graphics downloads, there is a lot of data I posted at CFC a couple weeks ago here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showt...&threadid=25208
For "normal" games, Communism C&W will not rear it's ugly head, as most people doubtless know. But it does in fact exist, and works out to about 1.6% in the worst case scenario. I have not tried to correct the Prima equations on pg. 105 of the Prima Guide, BTW.
Relative Summary:
(numbers are based on testing; they are approx., in worst case situations)
Democracy: Zero Corruption (0% max) & Zero Waste (0% max).
Fundamentalism: Zero (0% max) Corruption & Zero Waste (0% max).
Communism: Very Low Corruption (1.6% max) & Very Low Waste (2% max).
Republic: High Corruption (40% max)& Low Waste (10% max).
Monarchy: Very High Corruption (71% max) & Moderate Waste (17% max).
Despotism: Very High Corruption (79 % max) & High Waste (40% max).
Anarchy: Almost total (96% max) Corruption & Very High Waste (63% max).
As far as the cebration effects go, the only gov't that actually follow the Book's answer are ancient Gov'ts before Republic.... namely, Anarchy, Despotism, and Monarchy. These 3 will indeed enjoy the C&W of the next higher ANCIENT gov't.
Republic does not get that particular benefit, and no modern ones do. This means Communism, even when celebrating, does not drop it's C&W to 0%.
Communism and Fundamentalism, however, do get a benefit... they enjoy the trade of a Democracy (the extra arrow in each square that produces an arrow already). This is one of the pillars of PF & PC (Power Fundamentalism and Power Communism)....
When I was making the final inputs to Nethog, evidently I missed these additions, and thus caused the confusion in the 1.00 guide. Nice catch, Scouse Gits.
Hope everyone can use their knowledge and expertise and find any other errors or additions/corrections! With everyone's input, I think Nethog's reference will be about the best set of summaries around, esp. because all the misnomers and book errors are corrected (that we know about  ).
by SG:
quote:
I have never seen any Civ 2 manual but I know that the experienced players complain they are wrong about several topics |
Yes, the manual is wrong on some issues . Moreover, the Prima Guide is also wrong in places.
by SG:
quote:
A city celebrating [under Communism] enjoys the double trade arrows of a representative government |
I don't believe so. Under Communism, celebrations only result in the extra arrow of trade, not a doubling.
by NH:
quote:
Out of curiousity, does the "virtually zero" corruption and waste seen under Commie actually become "absoultely zero" when a Commie govt is celebrating? |
No. Modern Gov'ts don't get that benefit.
by NH:
quote:
The manual does state that cities under Commie and Fundy that are celebrating collect resources like a Republic. However, an experienced player on another web site claims the manual is wrong, and the extra arrow is not collected. Can anyone here say with certainty what is correct? |
The source of that misunderstanding likely lies in my cut & past of all those inputs on the huge thread at CFC.... I don't claim that about the extra arrow, and in fact, that extra arrow is crucial for PC & PF to work right! Sorry for the confusion!
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Starlifter
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Seattle's Rain....
Jun 2002
time: 21:20
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In the two hours it took for Apolyton to finally "take" my prior post, I see some new ones are up....
quote:
The extra arrow definitely does appear in the city window while in communist celebration. Did this player (Starlifter?) say that it does not actually get counted toward research or tax, a la fundamentalist science >50%?
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I think the source of confusion is in our thread at CFC, and I missed the correction. I should have caught that in the last revision and included a statement for both Fundy and Commie, and in fact already gave about 4 corrections, including those for Celebrating in F & C, to NH via the CFC techtree thread.
quote:
I can say with certainty that the extra arrows count towards happiness - a communist workers' paradise metropolis with stock exchange is packed with smiling light blue hats, even if the luxury rate is only set at 10%.
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Yes, the lux does count in commie. To make a PC run right (e.g., research as fast as Democracy under a narrow set of circumstances), it is necessary to keep the cities supplied with about 20-30% Lux and that extra arrow coming. (In an up and running PC, all the rest usually goes to Tax, and you get 1 advance per turn, exactly as under a Democracy.)
quote:
I've had some high powered communist trade cities producing 100s of arrows, and had research as fast as 2 turns per tech (without trade), but never the 1 turn per tech possible in democracy with the same cities. Maybe it has a cutoff point, just like fundamentalism... |
No, there's no science penalty for Communism. At least in MGE 5.4.0f (24Mar99), which is the version I use .
BTW, properly used, celebrating Commie and Fundy cities can generate the same science as a Democracy. A PF in particular is much easier to run than a PD... but you don't get the +1 pop per turn per city.... and that is a real killer. But if you've got the citizens you need, then Fundy can research tech just as fast as a Democracy (for one circumstance)... one advance per day with 0% science and one Einstein... if you set things up right.
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Nethog
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Canton, MI, USA
May 2001
time: 00:20
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I have put up version 1.01 of the ref pack on my web site at http://mywebpages.comcast.net/pmm1/games/games.html
I believe I have corrected the Governments page as per the feedback here and over at Civ Fanatics.
This will likely be my last update until after my vacation (returning July 8th). Keep the feedback coming!
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Starlifter
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Seattle's Rain....
Jun 2002
time: 21:20
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by SG:
quote:
I think the corruption in communism is a glitch that was probably never intended. At times it appears in the capital ? the Palace City is meant to be corruption free. |
I tend to agree with that.... I think it might even be a rounding or truncation error in the algorithm somewhere, early in the process... since the Courthouse improvement does indeed modify it. The C&W under Communism is lower that the reciprical high values of Anarchy.... e.g., anarchy corruption seems to be about 96%, or all but 4%.... Communism is about 2% corrupt, or 98% corruption free (no courthouse in all those cases).
Further, the corruption rate is constant (or flat).... it does not change with distance, and is present with a Palace, which is in keeping with your observation. That tends to point at the location in the Civ 2 algorithm where the corruption is introduced. But alas, I don't have the source code ...
And since no corruption shows up until after 64 arrows (without Courthouse), it is just not signigicant enough to have been a deliberate game balance addition, IMHO.
Last edited by Starlifter on 29-06-2002 at 03:20
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Starlifter
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Seattle's Rain....
Jun 2002
time: 21:20
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quote:
We can't agree with your 2% - in one of our PBEM games we have a communist capital with 112 trade arrows and 1 arrow lost to corruption.. |
The figures are for worst case, not all cases. And they are approximate, to give people a feel for the relative difference in worst case.
For example, if you have 60 arrows of trade in a commie city with no courthouse, you wil see 0/60, or 0% corruption.
If you add a few more arrows, to 65, you will see 1/65, or about 1.54% corruption. Add a courthouse, and the corruption will be 0/65 = 0%.
Try 95 trade, without: 1/95 = 1.05%
with: 1/95 = 1.05%
In your particular case, 1/112 =0.89%. Clearly that is not worst case. In fact, with no courthouse, you are a few arrows short of getting your 2nd corrupt arrow. When that quantum increment comes, your corruption will almost "double", in terms of percent, and be about 1.6%
So you could say 2% is approx. the max worst case corruption I've managed to generate in Communism. It's all based on actual results, since I have not worried about modeling the function.
Quite a few screenshots are posted in the link, BTW, for most forms of Gov't.
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Apolyton Time is 00:20. |
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27-06-2002 08:11
) Nethog doesn't mention what happens when a Fundamentalist government celebrates. Like Communism...an extra trade arrow on all squares that generate them.
Attachment: 
anyway just one query as to the wording of your entry on Refrigeration: It says "all city squares upgraded to farmland" (if only that were true 
And when has anybody seen a Commie city with 192 trade?
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