28-06-2002 23:31									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Yes.

I have many examples in my mind. But I don't remember the exact dates you will have to wait for che.

Still one that pops in my mind:

Italy after WW2.

The voting was overwhelming in favor of a socialist government. The current (capitalist) government distorted the votes and then crashed by military means the uprisings that his caused.

Greece after civil war:

The (capitalist) government outlawed the communist party for fear it would win the elections and again used force to qwell the uprisings.
Greece effectively got a socialist government in th '80s (which carried on with free market policies)


Turkey

Imprisoned and in many cases tortured to death all socialist leaders during the Cold War. Needless to say it outlawed everything too.


I'm sure there are many more examples in Latin America as well.

Predominantly Chile.

The people voted for the socialist Aliente who started curing the country from many evils.
The US brought forth a brutal dictatorship and overturned him.

Che will propably know more about your question than me.

	28-06-2002 23:32									#32
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Where on earth did that come from Albert?

	28-06-2002 23:34									#33
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In Italy after WW II America airlifted a bunch of Gangsters (!) into Italy to stuff ballot boxes, pressure people into not voting, etc when the Communist party was on the verge of victory.

	28-06-2002 23:42									#34
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many other illegal methods of "pressuring" voters (like in Italy) also have happened in France.

Also Spain and Portogale have had decades of dictatorhsips that crushed all "dissidents".

	28-06-2002 23:45									#35
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Those are problems with fascism more than democracy + capitalism.

	28-06-2002 23:46									#36
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If a "democracy" becomes so corrupt that there become a de facto subjugation of the so-called working class, perhaps. I think all communist takeovers were a reaction to true oppression.

The way we combat communism is not simply to promote free-market concepts, but to promote a democracy that is truly concerned with the welfare of all its people.

	28-06-2002 23:46									#37
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider In Italy after WW II America airlifted a bunch of Gangsters (!) into Italy to stuff ballot boxes, pressure people into not voting, etc when the Communist party was on the verge of victory.

Do you have a shred of evidence for this, or is this a story that communists tell eachother around the bonfire of money?

	28-06-2002 23:46									#38
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you asked if people ever voted for communism.

these are problems with capitalism turning fascist against the will of the people who vote communism.

	28-06-2002 23:47									#39
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 you asked if people ever voted for communism. these are problems with capitalism turning fascist against the will of the people who vote communism.

I didn't ask any such thing, I asked if there's any examples of communism that have worked.

	28-06-2002 23:48									#40
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No, communism is not dead. It certain isn't in good shape, but the economic conditions that made communism possible and necessary haven't disappeared. As lon as the world is divided into classes, there will be class war. As long as there is class war, there is the possibility of class revolution.

Revolution isn't something that happens because Communists sit around all day convincing people that's what they really need. They happen because at a crucial moment, the state finds itself unable to deal with a crisis. At that moment, if the people move, the government may fall. If a communist organization had previously led people in their daily struggles for a better life, then they may be able to lead the people forward to victory.

No government is prepared to deal with every possible crisis. Powerful dicatorships and governments can have their legitimacy shaken by natural disaster, war, economic crisis. Even the US cannot deal with everything. Had al-Qaeda mounted a sustained terrorist attack, they could have caused the government to fall, mostly like to be replaced with a military dictatorship.

	28-06-2002 23:48									#41
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no, you asked if people ever voted for communism.

	28-06-2002 23:48									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer a happy guy cause you live in your suburban mansion, liberal burgher?

Ha!, you've never been to Lowell Massachusets have you? Did you see that HBO special "High on Crack Street"? Yeah, thats Lowell.

	28-06-2002 23:51									#43
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 no, you asked if people ever voted for communism.

I dare you to find a quote from me asking that.

I asked you to provide examples from when "Imperialistic Powers" overtuned the "Will of the communist people" which you have yet to do, just a bunch of general BS without a shred of evidence.

By the same token, there's many instances where communism is far more brutal and doesn't permit democracy. MANY more, in fact.

So your point is entirely moot. Real democracy + capitalism should not be confused with fascism.

	28-06-2002 23:53									#44
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You have read nothing.

Go back and read.

to make it extra simple

Chile = people voted communism, imperialistic powers overturned it.


Real democary+capitalism do not exist if the will of the people for communism turns it into fascism.

simple non?

	28-06-2002 23:55									#45
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara No, communism is not dead. It certain isn't in good shape, but the economic conditions that made communism possible and necessary haven't disappeared. As lon as the world is divided into classes, there will be class war. As long as there is class war, there is the possibility of class revolution. Revolution isn't something that happens because Communists sit around all day convincing people that's what they really need. They happen because at a crucial moment, the state finds itself unable to deal with a crisis. At that moment, if the people move, the government may fall. If a communist organization had previously led people in their daily struggles for a better life, then they may be able to lead the people forward to victory. No government is prepared to deal with every possible crisis. Powerful dicatorships and governments can have their legitimacy shaken by natural disaster, war, economic crisis. Even the US cannot deal with everything. Had al-Qaeda mounted a sustained terrorist attack, they could have caused the government to fall, mostly like to be replaced with a military dictatorship.

CQ, Check out my post just before yours. Do you agree with it?

	28-06-2002 23:55									#46
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 You have read nothing. Go back and read. to make it extra simple Chile = people voted communism, imperialistic powers overturned it.

paiktis, no offense, but there are the odd cases of everything out there, and this proves nothing.

Communism in China is extremely oppresive right now, moreso than Chile ever was, so what's your point?

quote: Real democary+capitalism do not exist if the will of the people for communism turns it into fascism. simple non?

Yeah, if the democracy turns into fascism democracy does not exist. Very simple, but very moot and not related to anything?

	28-06-2002 23:57									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Do you have a shred of evidence for this, or is this a story that communists tell eachother around the bonfire of money?

It's a very well documented fact. It was the CIA's first major operation as the CIA.

	28-06-2002 23:59									#48
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asher, no offence taken and i have to apologize if i seemed angry.

but these stories which i told you are not BS. they have happened exactly as i told you. they are not made out of thin air.

now, i think that it is not moot. the point that: if democracy +capitalism will turn into fascism when people want a socialist government, then it is not democracy.

	28-06-2002 23:59									#49
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I have many documented acts by the US gov to overthrow democratically elected socialist governments, only to install a military dictatorship and the like. All under the guise of spreading 'democracy'.

	29-06-2002 00:01									#50
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 now, i think that it is not moot. the point that: if democracy +capitalism will turn into fascism when people want a socialist government, then it is not democracy.

Yeah, so what does that have to do with a true democracy + capitalism?

To the people using the US' CIA as something against democracy, you should know that it has to do with nationalism more than anything else. Not all democracies behave like the US to the point of overthrowing the "evil commies" all over the place.

It's a weird example.

	29-06-2002 00:07									#51
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it has nopthing to do with nationalism

if a democracy + capitalism PROHIBITS the will of the people to vote for something then it is not a democracy.

how more simple can it get?

	29-06-2002 00:07									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Field Marshal Klesh I have many documented acts by the US gov to overthrow democratically elected socialist governments, only to install a military dictatorship and the like. All under the guise of spreading 'democracy'.

Which is how different from Communism?


100 million people not enough? Thats how much people were murdered in the last 100 years by people who blindlessly followed that Marxist/Maoist crap.

Ukraine famine, 13 million. Stalins Purges,5 million. Mao's great plan, 23 million. North Korea, 6 million. Cambodia, 3 million. Vietnam, 2 million. Death from Wars and civil wars in Africa instigated by the Soviet Union: Uncountable (10 million).


Communism is dead..stained with the blood of millions. If you want to start a class war movement call it somthing else, but you will never get any support if your a communist. Unless if you live Milwaukee... (on the verge of electing ANOTHER open Communist)

	29-06-2002 00:08									#53
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sure its a wierd example, but it best exemplifies global dictatorial captialism at it's breaking point.

And here is a short list of the countries the US has been involved in overthrowing democratically elected governments in:

Indonesia- 1965
Philipines- 1972/1986
Haiti- 1916, 1957
Dominican Republic- 1916, 1962-4
Cuba- 1898, 1961
Chile 1973
Guatemala- 1954
Nicauragua- 1854, 1902, 1912, then 1979 involvement against San Danistas (sp?)
El Salvador- not sure of the year.

	29-06-2002 00:09									#54
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 if a democracy + capitalism PROHIBITS the will of the people to vote for something then it is not a democracy. how more simple can it get?

It's very simple, I agree with that completely, but I don't see what the point is of what you're saying.

It seems totally unrelated to anything talked about here. I've never said the US was a real democracy, they're not.

	29-06-2002 00:09									#55
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It always gives me cause to chuckle when I see the words "communism" and "effectively" being used together.

	29-06-2002 00:09									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Field Marshal Klesh sure its a wierd example, but it best exemplifies global dictatorial captialism at it's breaking point. And here is a short list of the countries the US has been involved in overthrowing democratically elected governments in: Indonesia- 1965 Philipines- 1972/1986 Haiti- 1916, 1957 Dominican Republic- 1916, 1962-4 Cuba- 1898, 1961 Chile 1973 Guatemala- 1954 Nicauragua- 1854, 1902, 1912, then 1979 involvement against San Danistas (sp?) El Salvador- not sure of the year.

Alright, and at this point you can discuss the political voice people have in China and other communist countries.

	29-06-2002 00:10									#57
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All of those examples are not communism, Asher. State socialism maybe, but certainly not communism in its real sense.

	29-06-2002 00:11									#58
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it will always be called communism

and Vietnamese were killed by the americans.

plus how many tens of million of people died from AMERICAN instigated wars?

huh faded glory?


most importantly how many countries got screwed by the US of A?

one day there must be payment and punishment.
(IMHO)

	29-06-2002 00:11									#59
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quote: All of those examples are not communism, Asher. State socialism maybe, but certainly not communism in its real sense.

I never said they were communist, I just find it incredibly amusing that a communist is complaining about political voice...

	29-06-2002 00:14									#60
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It's obvious that many people have problems to separate political ideology and historical and political events.