29-06-2002 01:59									#91
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Faded Glory, the USSR did not instigate wars in Africa. The USSR since Stalin's time has been a very conserivative government, prefering trying to buy off capitalist hostility by undercutting revolutionary movements that look to the USSR for leadership. In Africa, revolutions occured in spite of Soviet influence, rather than because of it.

This is a blatant lie. The Soviets supported Mengistu Ethiopian regime responsible for millions of death. Not only did the Soviets morally back them, they gave them the weapons they needed to re-occupy Eritrea and invade Somalia. Ethiopia was one of the best armed african nations, all because of there comrades in the politburo.

I can think of a few dozen more examples...shall I go on?

The point: The soviets were more than willing to sell off advanced weapons to murders who to instigate further wars. Give a mugger a knife, he robs a woman with a purse. Give him and his friends machine guns, he robs a bank.

	29-06-2002 02:02									#92
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yes, faded. It was the soviets that caused the chaos in Africa.

	29-06-2002 02:04									#93
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Communism never had a life to speak of.
It came to life, tried to breathe, then went into a death spasm.

	29-06-2002 02:07									#94
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"yes, faded. It was the soviets that caused the chaos in Africa."

I never said

What I did say is them dumping trillions of dollars worth of tanks, klashnikovs, and jet fighters onto the continent sure as hell didnt help things. It just made it easier to kill, overthrow and supress democratic movements.

If anybody denies this, just look at the facts
1) There are over 20 million ak-47's in Africa
2) There are over 15000 soviet era tanks in africa
3) there are Still Cuban 'advisors' all over training dictators police and armies how to root out democratic groups and supress popular uprisings.


Tell me that african wars would have claimed as many lives and africa would still be as unstable today had the Soviet Union never shipped a weapon?

	29-06-2002 02:09									#95
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They would still have found a way to kill.
Tribal wars in Africa have been going on just a little less time than in the Mideast.

	29-06-2002 02:10									#96
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*cough* .

Dumping trillions of dollars? sounds more like american defense spending.

trillions???

training dictators and advising them was much more often a US job, faded , and you know it.

	29-06-2002 02:24									#97
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory This is a blatant lie. The Soviets supported Mengistu Ethiopian regime responsible for millions of death. Not only did the Soviets morally back them, they gave them the weapons they needed to re-occupy Eritrea and invade Somalia. Ethiopia was one of the best armed african nations, all because of there comrades in the politburo.

First, there is a big difference between supporting a regime and supporting a revolutionary movement. Menghistu succeeded in overthrowing Hale Selasi not because the USSR was sponsoring him, but because Selasi was such a major bastard to his people. The Soviet Union dislikes revolutions, because one, they make the imperialists mad and increase the possibility of war, and two, there's a chance the revolution might be truely socialist, and show the USSR up for the sham it was. So let's not go tossing around terms like "blatent lie" shall we?

Now, som other facts. It was Selasi that invaded and occupied Eritrea, not Meghistu. And while Ethiopia did invade Somolia, IIRC, it was because the Somoli dictator Sidi Bari invaded Ethiopia first. (I might have that wrong. He may have just sponsored terrorist attacks across the border).

What is true is that Menghistu was a monster, responsible for millions of deaths. Famine was used as a weapon by Menghistu against the regions in which his opponents had their bases of power. There was also famen in the Ogden region, because of the war with Somolia.

What you fail to recognize, however, is that he was overthrown by two Marixst organizations, the Tigrean and Eritrean People's Fronts. (They have since renounced their Marxism.)



Well that blows. I can't find any of my books on Africa.

	29-06-2002 02:32									#98
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One interesting site about cuban/soviet involvement in Angola after Vietnam

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/CWIHP/BULLETINS/b8-9a3.htm

"Dumping trillions of dollars? sounds more like american defense spending. "

*shrug*

Billions, whatever....ya trillions is more american. But I suspect it would be around 300 billion dollars in military aid to countries like Ethiopia, Angola, Zaire, Sudan, Congo, DROC, etc.....the whole continent is loaded with Soviet equipment. You cant deny the link.


"training dictators and advising them was much more often a US job, faded , and you know it."

Ha..I doubt it. We never sent any of our troops to train dictatorship. Unless you consider south Vietnam and South Korea dictatorships?

Sure the Iran-Contra thing. But they were overthrowing even worse basterds. Thats the story of the cold war, supporting the lesser of two evils.

	29-06-2002 02:37									#99
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I know the Angola story pretty well. In your opinion , the soviet union was wrong in it's involvement, and the support of the MPLA , but have you seen the other side , the western , and south-african backed , UNITA ?

	29-06-2002 02:37									#100
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory "yes, faded. It was the soviets that caused the chaos in Africa." I never said [that]

quote: Originally posted by faded glory The Soviet Union destroyed africa.

Me thinks you did.

quote: What I did say is them dumping trillions of dollars worth of tanks, klashnikovs, and jet fighters onto the continent sure as hell didnt help things.

Trillions of dollars? Ridiculous. They didn't have that kind of money, not even over the several decades betwen decolonization and the fall of the USSR.

quote: It just made it easier to kill, overthrow and supress democratic movements.

The only democracies overthrown in Africa were overthrown by pro-US forces, backed by the US, and paid for by the US. No one single democracy in Africa fell to leftists, unless you wish to mke the ridculous claim that places like Rhodesia were democracies. Furthermore, what pro-democracy forces there were in Africa were leftists (though they certainly weren't sponsored by the Soviets).

quote: If anybody denies this, just look at the facts 1) There are over 20 million ak-47's in Africa 2) There are over 15000 soviet era tanks in africa 3) there are Still Cuban 'advisors' all over training dictators police and armies how to root out democratic groups and supress popular uprisings.

You forget that Soviet arms were cheap. They are also easily obtained from many sources, not just the Soviets. The "rebels" in Liberia and Sierra Leone certainly aren't getting their weapons from the Soviets, yet the weapons they use are definately Soviet style weapons.

However, I totally agree with you that the arms trade is an absolute evil. If only we could get our own country to stop engaging in the monstrous practice.

Finally, most of the Cuban advisors are doctors and teachers. Their presence in Africa is a good thing. You should read John Stockwell's account of his stint as the head of the CIA's destablization program in Angola. He paints the Cubans in a very good light, while painting Savimbi as completely useless to the Angolan people.

quote: Tell me that african wars would have claimed as many lives and africa would still be as unstable today had the Soviet Union never shipped a weapon?

The Africans would have bought French and American weapons were cheap Soviet weapons not available. The wars would have been every bit as horrible.

	29-06-2002 02:40									#101
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"First, there is a big difference between supporting a regime and supporting a revolutionary movement. Menghistu succeeded in overthrowing Hale Selasi not because the USSR was sponsoring him, but because Selasi was such a major bastard to his people. The Soviet Union dislikes revolutions, because one, they make the imperialists mad and increase the possibility of war, and two, there's a chance the revolution might be truely socialist, and show the USSR up for the sham it was. So let's not go tossing around terms like "blatent lie" shall we?
"

The link I provided proves this is a blatant lie and that you sir, are full of hot air on the issue.

"Now, som other facts. It was Selasi that invaded and occupied Eritrea, not Meghistu. And while Ethiopia did invade Somolia, IIRC, it was because the Somoli dictator Sidi Bari invaded Ethiopia first. (I might have that wrong. He may have just sponsored terrorist attacks across the border). "

That may be true, but alas Mengistu pushed transfer of the Eritreans and did indeed invade Somalia. He also sponsered the Christian revolution in Southern Sudan in hopes of siezing oil fields along the border at a later point.


"What is true is that Menghistu was a monster, responsible for millions of deaths. Famine was used as a weapon by Menghistu against the regions in which his opponents had their bases of power. There was also famen in the Ogden region, because of the war with Somolia. "

Funny, Famine is used by all 'Communist' nations. Sad isnt it? Ukraine, Cambodia, Xiyain. Really pathetic huh?



This is all Irrelevent. The Soviets actively supported the most cruelest regimes on earth. To excuse this here and that. And to explain away things one at a time...is pointless. The Soviets instigated alot of African wars. Even if there still would of been wars, the Soviets made it so much easier for rebels to kill and Dicators to supress democracy.

	29-06-2002 02:43									#102
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im done, debates are boring. Im hungry

	29-06-2002 02:44									#103
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Ha..I doubt it. We never sent any of our troops to train dictatorship. Unless you consider south Vietnam and South Korea dictatorships?

I try to be nice and not insult you, and I'm not going to do so now. But you make it oh so hard to resist when you write things like this.

1) Both of the countries you mentioned were dictatorships. South Korea, despite free elections in the 1990s, is still a very authoritarian state, but it's not a dicatorship any longer.

2) The US has trained the soldiers in dicatorships across the planet: Mexico, Guatelmala, Honduras, El Salvador, Nicargua (under Somoza), Panama, Peru, Brazil, Bolvia, Chile, Uruguay, Argentina, Taiwan, South Korea, South Vietnam, the Philippeans (under Marcos), Indonesia, Cambodea under Lon Nol, Thailand, Pakistan, Iran (under the Shah), Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, Greece, Spain, Portugal, Morocco, and probably quite a few others in Africa.

	29-06-2002 02:56									#104
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To a second time comment on the original subject (if communism is dead, remember?) and at the same time put it in the so called context of a number of millions of lifes lost in one way or the other. You know, the reason your calling each other names.

Not that long ago religion was seen as a thing of the past, an archaic remain from the pre-modern world by scholars. With the modern world religion would be a time of the past. Oh this brave new world! This archaic remain that have been used for so much ill-doing, excused so much oppression and wars isn't looking to die out anytime soon afterall.

In the light of this applied on communism, I think it would be to temp faith to claim its death. Communism has in ways caught up ancient ideas that pre-dates "The Communist manifesto" by centuries.

I'm still waiting for the "end of history" here in my Ivory-tower...

	29-06-2002 02:58									#105
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Krop: Francis Fukuyama will set you straight.

	29-06-2002 03:01									#106
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Well, I thought it was time for some discreet name-dropping.

	29-06-2002 03:03									#107
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I'm glad that someone finally went and said that Communism is a religion.

	29-06-2002 03:03									#108
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory The link I provided proves this is a blatant lie and that you sir, are full of hot air on the issue.

Do you know what the words "blatant" and "lie" even mean? When you call me a blatant liar, you engage in libel, sir. It is an undeserved insult, and since I have refrained from insulting you for a very long time, you could at least extend me the same courtesy.

Second, it seems to me that you didn't read the link you posted very carefully. While it is true the Soviets did extend a limited amount of aid to certain Angolan forces it says nothing about Menghistu and Ethiopia. It also, frequently, said, the USSR was very reluctant to aid African insurgencies. If it weren't for Cuba pushing so hard, it's doubtful the USSR would have gotten involved at all. Even then, it was only to save the Soviet-Cuban relationship, as Castro had shown once before he was willing to break with the Soviets.

Now, considering the monster that Savimbi was, and how many lives he cost Angola (1.5 million) before he got his well deserved bullet, it was a good thing the Cubans intervened in Angola. Again, read Stockwell. The guy who ran the CIA program in Angola. He knows a heck of a lot more about it than either you or I (though I base what I know on hi,).

	29-06-2002 03:05									#109
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Religion is a dream for meaning, communism is a dream for a better world.

Communism in theory isn't a religion but it has worked out like that in most cases. Theories don't work in real life. Even Homer J. Simpson knows that.

	30-06-2002 09:17									#110
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	02-07-2002 00:29									#111
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bump

	02-07-2002 00:37									#112
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Would you care to comment on if communism is a religion?

	02-07-2002 00:46									#113
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Not really, but I guess I will.

Religions all posit a reality which cannot be known by the senses alone. Communism does not. Communism is an atheist, materialist philosophy.

Communists share some characteristics with the religious, i.e., there's definately an aspect of faith in supporting a system that hasn't gotten it right in 150 years of trying (more if you consider the Utopian communists). Sure, I can state with exactitude what caused the failure of previous attempts, but knowing why something failed is not the same as having proof that it can succeed. That it should theoretically work doesn't mean diddly until it does work.

	02-07-2002 00:50									#114
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Not really,

I get it. You just want to torture fg some more.

	02-07-2002 00:57									#115
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quote: State socialism maybe, but certainly not communism in its real sense.

Would you say, then, that what US practises when it overthrow foreign countries and whatnot isn't capitalism in it's real sense?

Also, some might say there's something not quite jiggly between your statements on "Communism doesn't come to power by voting" and then listing countries, apparently disapprovingly, where US-friendly regimes didn't come to power by voting.

	02-07-2002 01:06									#116
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I get it. You just want to torture fg some more.

Bingo!

	02-07-2002 01:08									#117
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Actually, Chegitz...

Trujillo WAS killed by CIA-supplied Dominican conservatives:

quote: Despite the failures of the more radical Dominicans to unseat Trujillo, the Dictator in the 1950's began losing support from his traditional allies including , the Catholic Church, the US government, and members of the Dominican elite. In 1960 the SIM accused five Catholic priests of conspiracy and bomb making with the Anti-Trujillo movement. Three of the priests were deported and the Catholic Church protested by sending a pastoral letter to the dictator calling on Trujillo to halt the "excesses, dry the tears, heal the wounds." The once supportive Catholic Church now clearly demanded human rights from the Trujillo regime. Although Trujillo still had supporters in Washington, a number of people in the Eisenhower administration feared that Trujillo's iron hand was leading to a radicalization of the Dominican rebels. Relations between the US government and the dictator were further strained when Trujillo agents attempted unsuccessfully to kill Venezuelan president Bentancourt with a bomb. The US feared that the Dominican Republic would follow the revolutionary model of Fidel Castro's Cuba and so the US's CIA began contacts with more conservative Dominicans who opposed Trujillo. CIA agents made contact with once loyal Trujillistas who were now plotting an assassination of the dictator. The assassins were wealthy Dominicans who had personal grudges against the dictator, or who had family members who had suffered at the hands of the SIM. The conspirators even included several relatives of Trujillo and high ranking political and military officials. The CIA without wanting to appear involved with this group secretly supplied several carbine rifles for the assassins to slay Trujillo, and they promised US support for the new regime once the dictator was dead. On May 30th, 1961 the conspirators assassinated Rafael Trujillo, by firing into the dictator's car on a deserted patch of highway. The Dictator was dead. However, the coup attempt was not succesful. The assassins went into hiding as Ramfis Trujillo, the dictator's son, assumed control of the Dominican Republic the following day. The following month almost all of the assassins were rounded up along with their families and friends. All were tortured and several committed suicide. In October, street riots broke out in Ciudad Trujillo and workers went on strike financed by the anti Trujillist National Civic Union. On November 18, 1961 the six remaining Trujillo assassins were taken to Ramfi Trujillo's hacienda where they were tied to trees, shot, cut up and fed to sharks at a nearby beach. The following day Ramfi Trujillo fled the Dominican Republic under US military guard while the US Atlantic fleet arrived in Santo Domingo's harbor

thanks

	02-07-2002 01:10									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Stefu Would you say, then, that what US practises when it overthrow foreign countries and whatnot isn't capitalism in it's real sense?

While this isn't directed at me, I'll take up the cudgel. No, I would not say that it isn't capitalism. I would say preceisely the opposite, that the government is doing the capitalists bidding (disposing of a government which is making Amerian capitalists unhappy).

quote: Also, some might say there's something not quite jiggly between your statements on "Communism doesn't come to power by voting" and then listing countries, apparently disapprovingly, where US-friendly regimes didn't come to power by voting.

The point there was that when people tried to institute socialism, communism, or, most often, welfare state capitalism by voting, the US overthrew them. That's not that hard to fgure out, Stefu.

	02-07-2002 01:13									#119
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So in other words, Speer, I was right.

quote: Speer, the US Marine's did not kill Trujillo. He fell from power and was replaced with a left-leaning democracy. It was this new government which was invaded and overthrown by the Marines in 1965.