28-06-2002 21:06									#1
	Is Communism effectively dead? Tired of ads?

Has it run its course, proved itself as a failure, and will never rise again? Will it continue in a moderate form? Are there numbers of supporters of communism in the First World? Is it possible to gain support in the Third World? Can it obtain strength through popular appeal (elections), terror, or through actual military conquest (China conquering Taiwan, etc.)?

What do you think? This is especially directed to you communists: chegitz et al.


thanks

	28-06-2002 21:12									#2
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Communism was/is a mere incarnation of very old ideas. The ghost is still walking around in the world.

	28-06-2002 21:15									#3
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There were way more failures in Capitalism than in Communism.

Silly person.

	28-06-2002 21:16									#4
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soem thought and still think that it can gain support by terror (mobilizing the masses)

but here it can't, so they better stop.

	28-06-2002 21:21									#5
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BTW, I recomend to all the book 17 November: Europe's Last Red Terrorists.

It is an eye -opener on the mouldings and transitionsof a country (Greece) from the civil war (communists-nationals) to the present day.

It is one of the best books I've ever read.

Your question is too complex to adequately answer or even give a hint here.

I'm not so much interested in wether communism will resurface (because I'm almost sure it will not - at least not in its previous form) but about the inner battles (ideological and other) that brought countries where they are now.

Breathtaking. GET THE BOOK

	28-06-2002 21:24									#6
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communism dead?
nah, we still got Che here

	28-06-2002 21:25									#7
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 BTW, I recomend to all the book 17 November: Europe's Last Red Terrorists.

Does it mention the incompetence of the Greek police and the period of time when the Greek government turned itself into a "vacation resort" for various terrorist groups?

	28-06-2002 21:42									#8
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counter reaction by the imperialist powers, propaganda and suppresion of civil liberties will increase the revolutionary will of the people...


or something like that

17 November


ah, and I can see it in the making


Yes it not only mentions but details all periods of terrorist activity in Greece.

Your statement is too simplistic to answer.

The most interesting thing about the book though is the wholnss by wich it deals with the issue.

As many have said (including BBC which you propably know as a media) there will never be a better book about 17 November.

	28-06-2002 21:50									#9
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It also destroyes the myth aboutlinks of 17 November with the social democrats.

While the roots of the group are definetely from the extra parliamentary left wing and after the bringing down of the US sponosred dictatorship in Greece, the ammount of attacks against socialists as well as other sides of the story disproves any link.

The conspiracy enthousiasts will be dissapointed with this book...

	28-06-2002 21:53									#10
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As long as there are those who want brotherhood and justice as the law of the land, there will always be communism.

	28-06-2002 21:56									#11
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It also explained the docility of the people against it.

It has taken extra care to present itself as the voice of the people that the imperialist-controled from abroad governments of Greece do not represent.

But the book argues that it has failed to increase the revolutionary counciousness of the people to the point of entstaing a socialist state which it thinks can only be achieved through the use of weapons due to the history of imperialistic intervantion in greek politics.

The book classifies 17N which is propably the best terrorist groupp in europe and with a lot in common with the red brigades(italy), or raf (germany)or action directe (france) as a romantic revolutionary, utopian, militaristic group.

it's main fault is that it never understood that after the metapoliteysi the social fabrice and indeed the will of the people did not support a violent revolutionary deturnment of the state to a socialist entity.

	28-06-2002 21:58									#12
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therefore, it propably serves no use.

	28-06-2002 22:58									#13
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As much as I dislike you Albert, I will entertain your question for a bit.

In short, I would say no. Communism (the Marxian interpretation) is one step above the economic evolutionary ladder. Capitalism sews within itself the seeds for eventual socialism, and hopefully communism. True communism, world communism, has never been reached yet. Forget the Soviet Union, that wasn't no communism there despite what some will say. With globalization, WTO's IMF's and the like, we are seeing an uber-capitalism that surlely will further separate the bourgeosie and proletariat to the point where the proletariat cannot stand it any more, and has had enough with the opression.

Just look at the numbers of protesters at various international meetings. Heel, they are holding the G8 way off in the Canadian NoWhere Rockies, so the suits aren't bothered by real people's opinions. That's democracy for you. Therefor, as world opinion grows futher against the world capitalist, we are sure to see changes. Perhaps not in Che's or my lifetime, but it is comming. People are starting to notice what is going on.

-FMK.

	28-06-2002 23:04									#14
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"Just look at the numbers of protesters at various international meetings."

Middle class brats that has read a book to many is not a solid foundation for a socioeconomic revolution.

	28-06-2002 23:13									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Field Marshal Klesh In short, I would say no. Communism (the Marxian interpretation) is one step above the economic evolutionary ladder.

Yes, that's right, which is precisely why communist countries end up turning democratic-capitalist when given time.

Is there any example of communism that has worked?

quote: Just look at the numbers of protesters at various international meetings. Heel, they are holding the G8 way off in the Canadian NoWhere Rockies, so the suits aren't bothered by real people's opinions. That's democracy for you.

It almost makes me wish that those world leaders were democratically elected.

You vote with your votes, not with your blockading of traffic, capiche?

	28-06-2002 23:14									#16
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Okkkkaaay. Do you suggest they just sit home?

	28-06-2002 23:14									#17
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not really asher. because it is proven historically that if the masses vote for communism, the imperialistic powers will overturn that vote.

so no cigar to you

hence if voting is not free, you dont vote you have the illusion of voting. capiche?

	28-06-2002 23:16									#18
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Asher, communism doesnt come to fruition by voting, comprede?

	28-06-2002 23:17									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Field Marshal Klesh Okkkkaaay. Do you suggest they just sit home?

No, I suggest they actually get information out to the public with actual information about their cause.

If they don't like the G8, blocking traffic while running around naked screaming and holding signs saying "I H8 THE G8" doesn't get your point across. People want facts, evidence, and reason behind the viewpoints. Nobody cares what some seemingly-high-on-drugs hippies running around think unless they show they can reason.

quote: not really asher. because it is proven historically that if the masses vote for communism, the imperialistic powers will overturn that vote.

Like?

	28-06-2002 23:18									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Field Marshal Klesh Asher, communism doesnt come to fruition by voting, comprede?

So you actually would suggest this is what is best for most people, when you admit that it doesn't come to fruition by voting?

I wonder why it's not popular...

	28-06-2002 23:18									#21
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not sure what you mean by "like?"

you want examples?

	28-06-2002 23:18									#22
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"People want facts, evidence, and reason behind the viewpoints. "
And then they elect people like Bush Jr.

	28-06-2002 23:19									#23
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 not sure what you mean by "like?" you want examples?

Yes.

quote: And then they elect people like Bush Jr.

We're not entirely sure of that actually.

	28-06-2002 23:21									#24
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quote: If they don't like the G8, blocking traffic while running around naked screaming and holding signs saying "I H8 THE G8" doesn't get your point across. People want facts, evidence, and reason behind the viewpoints. Nobody cares what some seemingly-high-on-drugs hippies running around think unless they show they can reason.

And what mainstream media do you think will give them a platform? Americans don't tend to go out looking for info themselves. They veg out and get it from the tv. So no mainstream press coverage and in depth analysis means no hope in the US. All we have now is the internet, pirate radio, and the Camcorder Truth Jihad™.
They wouldn't even let Nader into the televised debates, cause the sponsors didn't like it. All the sudden, they raise the % of votes needed to appear to just out of Nader's range.

	28-06-2002 23:23									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Field Marshal Klesh And what mainstream media do you think will give them a platform?

Have they considered the internet?

quote: Americans don't tend to go out looking for info themselves. They veg out and get it from the tv.

So the millions of people that surf the web are all isolated events, then?

quote: All we have now is the internet, pirate radio, and the Camcorder Truth Jihad™.

I'm not seeing any activists linking to websites discussing the issues of the G8.

You have the internet and you don't use it effectively.

The fact remains that running about nude with a sign saying "I H8 THE G8" doesn't change anyone's minds at all, so they may as well just be sitting at home. It might be better for their cause, so they don't aggravate the people they want to change the minds of...

	28-06-2002 23:23									#26
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Its not popular because those who would benefit from it being delegitimized and blacklisted have done so, and thusly benefited.

	28-06-2002 23:25									#27
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quote: I'm not seeing any activists linking to websites discussing the issues of the G8. You have the internet and you don't use it effectively.

do you think I'd do it on apolyton.
you've got to be mad.

	28-06-2002 23:25									#28
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quote: Its not popular because those who would benefit from it being delegitimized and blacklisted have done so, and thusly benefited.

Communists would be funny if they weren't so sad.

	28-06-2002 23:26									#29
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Why are they sad, I am a rather happy guy.

	28-06-2002 23:29									#30
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a happy guy cause you live in your suburban mansion, liberal burgher?