09-07-2002 00:28									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Plenty of straights march in the parade already, whether it be politicians pandering for votes or those wonderful friends, moms and dads of PFLAG. There is no exclusion of heterosexuals. I would hesitate to say yes to the float simply because its theme, "straight pride," isn't the theme of the parade, which is "gay pride." It would be rather off-topic.

Well isnt it rather off-topic to have a gay float in an irish parade? Just as straights are not excluded from the gay parade, gays are not excluded from the irish parade. They are just not allowed to have a float or march under the gay banner. Frankly I cant understand why they would even want to.

quote: But, if it featured buff, shirtless straight guys dancing it up and having fun, I can't say I'd complain...

	09-07-2002 00:37									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Well isnt it rather off-topic to have a gay float in an irish parade? Just as straights are not excluded from the gay parade, gays are not excluded from the irish parade. They are just not allowed to have a float or march under the gay banner. Frankly I cant understand why they would even want to.

Because they are gay and Irish and proud of being both, I suppose. I'm not Irish (ok, a little, but not enough to count), so I wouldn't want to. But I don't see it as being any different from any of the other various subgroups in the Parade. It's not just a monolithic march of Irish people, now, is it? They're Irish and they're gay...it happens!

I think it is different from the gay parade, in that everything there has something to do with being gay/bisexual/transgender. Being straight doesn't have anything to do with those things.

Not that there's anything wrong with it...

	09-07-2002 00:58									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Because they are gay and Irish and proud of being both, I suppose. I'm not Irish (ok, a little, but not enough to count), so I wouldn't want to. But I don't see it as being any different from any of the other various subgroups in the Parade. It's not just a monolithic march of Irish people, now, is it? They're Irish and they're gay...it happens! I think it is different from the gay parade, in that everything there has something to do with being gay/bisexual/transgender. Being straight doesn't have anything to do with those things.

What does being gay have to do with being irish? If they want a gay irish float so bad then why dont they have one in the gay parade? Or do they?

	09-07-2002 01:01									#124
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They do. But being both in they gay and Irish communities, they would like acceptance in both, which makes it relevant.

And one can be both gay and Irish, which is the point.

One can't be both gay and straight, as they are contradictory...

	09-07-2002 01:02									#125
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What does being a firefighter have to do with being Irish? Yet there is the Irish firefighters in the parade...

	09-07-2002 01:21									#126
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God!!!!

I read all those posts and I can't belive that Western Culture is in so weak condition, and that the idea of conservatism is so far from its normal meaning.

To a normal conservative guy gays and homosexualism is a disease and it is abnormal thing.

It doesn't mean that I hate them, it means that Im very concerned about them and express a condolence because of their disease.

And Im against all gays parade because it is a try to equalize the heterosexuals with homosexuals which is of course bullshit

Im very pleased that in Poland Gays are afraid to do such a parade, and that I dont have to look on disgusting picture of two men holding hands each other. If someone in Poland would do such a thing, after few minutes would be told to stop such a disgusting for eyes things

	09-07-2002 01:26									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov What does being a firefighter have to do with being Irish? Yet there is the Irish firefighters in the parade...

But there are many, many irish who are firefighters and police officers. Is there as great a proportion of irish in the gay community?

	09-07-2002 01:30									#128
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I'd say about 5-7% of Irish people are gay...

Does it matter if it's less than firemen?

And hey everyone...it looks like the Nazis are still in Poland after all!

	09-07-2002 01:48									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I'd say about 5-7% of Irish people are gay... Does it matter if it's less than firemen?

My point is that the reason you have firemen in the St Paddy's parade is because its such a significant part of the irish community. Seeing as gays are a much smaller portion of the irish community there seems to be less reason for them to be in the parade.

Why do they want to be in a parade where they are not wanted anyway? Its seems to me they are more interested in agitating than celebrating. Why else would you try to force yourself onto people who dont want you?

	09-07-2002 01:56									#130
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There are other, much smaller groups that march in the parade, Cali. I'd wager that there wasn't any more than 5-7% of Irish people who were firefighters.

They want to march because they are Irish. They want to celebrate their Irishness. There maybe some agitators who are there to make an issue, but I think most are just gay Irish folks who want to march.

	09-07-2002 21:10									#131
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I hate to interrupt the shellacking you're taking, Cali, but I can't resist tossing in a few comments:

quote: Pretty childish IMO. I didn't see any drunken brawls at the St Paddys parade, whos stereotyping now Boris?

Okay, how about remove all references to St. Patrick's Day Parade and replace with Mardi Gras Parade in New Orleans. Any childishness or embarassing heterosexual stereotypes being reinforced there? Hint: "Show us your tits!"

quote: Why do they want to be in a parade where they are not wanted anyway?

I dunno, maybe they feel they are as good as any other Irish folk?

Actually, that question metaphorically encapsulates the motivation behind the entire gay rights movement.

	09-07-2002 21:13									#132
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Hmm, good points, mindseye...

"Why do they want to be in a [society] where they are not wanted, anyway?"

	09-07-2002 21:23									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Luk God!!!! I read all those posts and I can't belive that Western Culture is in so weak condition, and that the idea of conservatism is so far from its normal meaning. To a normal conservative guy gays and homosexualism is a disease and it is abnormal thing. It doesn't mean that I hate them, it means that Im very concerned about them and express a condolence because of their disease. And Im against all gays parade because it is a try to equalize the heterosexuals with homosexuals which is of course bullshit Im very pleased that in Poland Gays are afraid to do such a parade, and that I dont have to look on disgusting picture of two men holding hands each other. If someone in Poland would do such a thing, after few minutes would be told to stop such a disgusting for eyes things

Just wait, Luk. In a few years they'll force their beliefs on Poland, too. If you say anything that is anti-gay you will be labeled a homophobe and a closet homo. After all, freedom of opinion and expression only apply if you are mouthing whatever current liberal belief is en vouge. Say or believe anything else and you will be attacked. Read the posts responding to this. You'll see. Anyone who believes liberals and leftists are tolerant has their head up their ass. Flame away, people.

	09-07-2002 21:32									#134
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quote: Originally posted by nationalist Just wait, Luk. In a few years they'll force their beliefs on Poland, too. If you say anything that is anti-gay you will be labeled a homophobe and a closet homo. After all, freedom of opinion and expression only apply if you are mouthing whatever current liberal belief is en vouge. Say or believe anything else and you will be attacked. Read the posts responding to this. You'll see. Anyone who believes liberals and leftists are tolerant has their head up their ass. Flame away, people.

Why would you think such inane and unimaginative comments are deserving of flames?

	09-07-2002 23:06									#135
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Well I guess Mardi Gras is straight Pride day.

Im proud to be straight! Damn proud I tell ya! Thats somthing to be proud of!

Now show me YOUR tits baby!

	09-07-2002 23:12									#136
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". If someone in Poland would do such a thing, after few minutes would be told to stop such a disgusting for eyes things "

Well I find it totally disgusting too. But thats my prefrence. And I have right to look away from what I view as perverted. But not a right to tell them they cant.


To each his own I guess. I make out in public sometimes, If somebody told me they didnt like it. I'd tell em' get lost. They could look away.

	09-07-2002 23:15									#137
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It's funny (read: sad, tragic) how some people think it's okay to oppress people--oft times violently--just because they want to hold hands with someone in public...

	09-07-2002 23:46									#138
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Well I guess Mardi Gras is straight Pride day.

Hardly. Mardi Gras, Carnival, Halloween (in Key West) are all sexual pride days. Yes, there are lotsa guys screaming, "SHOW US YOUR TITS!" And there are lots of women showing them. But on those floats, those aren't woman in those flamboyant, feathered and sequinned outfits. Those holidays are all about gettin' in on, and it don't matter who you like gettin' it on with.

Just remember, every day is straight pride day.

	09-07-2002 23:47									#139
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Well I find it totally disgusting too. But thats my prefrence. And I have right to look away from what I view as perverted. But not a right to tell them they cant. To each his own I guess. I make out in public sometimes, If somebody told me they didnt like it. I'd tell em' get lost. They could look away.

	10-07-2002 18:14									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov They want to march because they are Irish. They want to celebrate their Irishness. There maybe some agitators who are there to make an issue, but I think most are just gay Irish folks who want to march.

I dont think anyone stops them marching because they are gay, they just dont want them to have big gay floats. I can see both sides, but in the end I have to support the right of the parade organisers to choose who they want to be in it.

	10-07-2002 18:21									#141
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quote: Originally posted by mindseye I hate to interrupt the shellacking you're taking, Cali, but I can't resist tossing in a few comments:

shellacking? You are a fool. Boris and I are having a perfectly civil discussion. Nobody is taking a "shellacking".

quote: Okay, how about remove all references to St. Patrick's Day Parade and replace with Mardi Gras Parade in New Orleans. Any childishness or embarassing heterosexual stereotypes being reinforced there? Hint: "Show us your tits!"

Obviously yes, but heteros are not a minority trying to gain acceptance by a majority.

quote: I dunno, maybe they feel they are as good as any other Irish folk?

If the people who organise the parade dont want a big gay float in it I think thats fair enough. Its their parade.

	10-07-2002 18:22									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia I dont think anyone stops them marching because they are gay, they just dont want them to have big gay floats. I can see both sides, but in the end I have to support the right of the parade organisers to choose who they want to be in it.

Nope, all they want is a banner and to march behind it. That's all they've asked for, and it was denied.

As I said, the parade people can have who they want. But I can still say it stinks of hypocrisy and hate. And I have no problem with activists pointing that out year after year.

	10-07-2002 18:23									#143
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Cali: read my lips: No big gay float wanted. Just a normal-sized gay banner. No naked people on it, even.

	10-07-2002 18:23									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov "Why do they want to be in a [society] where they are not wanted, anyway?"

A parade and a society are two different things arent they?

	10-07-2002 18:25									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia A parade and a society are two different things arent they?

It's a general point about acceptance, and you can't totally disentangle the activities of a society (such as parades) from society itself. What gould would it be to have a lip service "oh sure, you're part of society," and then still be excluded from things based on who one is, not what one does?

	10-07-2002 18:26									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Nope, all they want is a banner and to march behind it. That's all they've asked for, and it was denied. As I said, the parade people can have who they want. But I can still say it stinks of hypocrisy and hate. And I have no problem with activists pointing that out year after year.

I agree that its hypocritical given the catholic church's position on homosexuality, but I still think they have a right to choose who they want to be in a parade.

	10-07-2002 18:27									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Cali: read my lips: No big gay float wanted. Just a normal-sized gay banner. No naked people on it, even.

Personally I am not opposed to that, but should the parade organisers have the right to say who marches and who doesnt? I say they do.

	10-07-2002 18:29									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov It's a general point about acceptance, and you can't totally disentangle the activities of a society (such as parades) from society itself. What gould would it be to have a lip service "oh sure, you're part of society," and then still be excluded from things based on who one is, not what one does?

The people who say "oh sure, you're a part of society" are not necessarily the same ones who exclude them from the parade are they?

	10-07-2002 18:56									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Personally I am not opposed to that, but should the parade organisers have the right to say who marches and who doesnt? I say they do.

And haven't I said the same thing several times? I'm getting dizzy from the circles...

quote: The people who say "oh sure, you're a part of society" are not necessarily the same ones who exclude them from the parade are they?

You'd be surprised.

	10-07-2002 18:59									#150
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Boris-
Well lets wrap this up by saying that we agree, and we are both incredibly intelligent.