03-07-2002 20:21									#1
	War Acacemy: Tactic for the upcoming war Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

This is a discussion thread for tactics for the upcoming war. I believe that we still have not come to an official consensus regarding the target, but we know a lot of the terrain of America and France, so we can still think up some individual tactics. Ideas, anyone?

	03-07-2002 20:31									#2
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What I believe we should do is accost the American Empire, if indeed it can be called that, as soon as we have, say eight archers, and several spearmen, perhaps three, to move with them to defend them if they are attacked. I believe that we must move up from the south towards the border that faces Washington, itself, the capital of the Americans, and that then, once we have crossed the border and called up Lincoln, we shall tell him to his face that we have declared war on him, and then, before he can even react, we must make our assault on Washington, and fall on them hard, with as many archers as is necessary or practicable. In other words, we must catch them by surprise, but at the same time, we must declare war on them before the attack, and thus preserve a good standing foreign status. I believe that if we have enough well-trained men, we can take Washington within the first turn that we attack, and that the vile enemy's capital will fall. If the Americans only have two cities as this point, than we should not go after New York (unless the President decides to destroy the enemy totally, though I do not believe he had). Hopefully, the enemy by this point will have three cities, and so we can move on to New York and take that, and still leave the enemy broken, but not totally destroyed, and little more than a vassal-state for our own mighty empire.

I do not believe that much at all can be gained by attacking the French. They have nothing, I believe, short of iron, that the Americans do not, and the Americans still might have iron yet, I do not believe that we have scouted enough to find out.

	03-07-2002 20:33									#3
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We mass our tanks in Banana HQ, cluster the destroyers for a blockade at Orleans, start gifting our allies-to-be ....

Seriously, seems kind of simple to me. Case Pink essentials still apply. We have to strike quickly, en masse. So we stack 2 spears and as many archers as we can assemble, and march them toward ....
Well, we need more scouting before deciding on a target city and angle of approach. (I'm hoping Washington sits right below a mountain.)

	03-07-2002 20:35									#4
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Tactics, not strategy. We need to know, say, what tile to move to if this happens etc.

	03-07-2002 20:41									#5
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Before we can really develope a keen and absolute tactic, we must, know ye not, get a keen idea of the terrain and land about the great city itself. Then and only then can we decide really what tactic we should use. I ask you, good sir, has Washington ever been mapped, or pictured, do we know what the terrain about it is?

	03-07-2002 20:45									#6
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remember: capitals are always well defended, even in the early game. they might have 5 units defending it. why not raze a few other cities before starting on washington. the other cities are much less defended. we might fail against the capital, but if we had razed a few cities before that, we could still get a good deal on the barganing table.

	03-07-2002 20:47									#7
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But sir! I ask you, what point is there in razing a city! It only damages us, sir. Indeed, would a captured city be of more use as a part of empire than as a smoldering ruin?

	03-07-2002 20:57									#8
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I don't think we need raze a city. At this stage in the game we need all the resources we can get, especially people.

I suggest we send out an army of whatever we can afford without leaving ourselves open and attack the nearest American city.

Dave

	03-07-2002 21:23									#9
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It may not be our choice. It may be autorazed.

	03-07-2002 21:40									#10
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I have yet to see a capital with more than three units this early in the game. At least when it is my first target. If we target another city first, you can bet they will reinforce the capital quickly. As it is, they will have at least two turns to reinforce before our attack, why give them more?

We must strike the Capital because it is the most productive city, it will not auto-raze, and therefore the most damaging, and most profitable blow we can deliver. With any luch our second target will either be the 'new' capital, or have an improvement, therefore preventing auto-raze.

Also, we do not want to cross boarders untill after we declare war. No need to tarnish our reputation in that way especially so early in the game.

We need more info before deciding which square to go to. Should wait till just before the attack, 10 or so turns before.

	03-07-2002 21:46									#11
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I'm guessing Unortho's right: we'll probably encounter 2 or 3 spears, or 2 spears and a warrior, plus an archer (or sword or horseman, coming in to attack). I don't expect to encounter 5 defenders.
On the other hand, if the capitol is ringed with other cities and we have to make our way deep into American territory in order to reach the capitol, then our attacking force might be winnowed down. In that case, taking a city en route and pop-rushing a barracks might be necessary. Though that makes this war a much messier proposition.

	03-07-2002 21:51									#12
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Sir Ralph, Uber, and others have already calculated that 8 Archers will work.

	03-07-2002 22:06									#13
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America, at least is unlikely to be 'ringed' with cities. It is boardered with jungle on the west, they have already claimed the dye to their south, so there is little incentive for them to expande a Jungle city to the west.

France, too, has Jungle to their west, although one would preferr to be comming from the mountains, this would likely provide a route to the capital without having to deal with satellite cities first.

I would be surprised to find three spears in either capital, likely 2 plus an archer or warrior or two. Though I suppose they COULD pop rush another spear.

Ideally, our attack will occur right as a settler/spear team leaves (they rarely turn back), thus preventing pop rush and reducing defenders.

	03-07-2002 22:13									#14
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If what you say is true - Capitals are never auto-razed, then we must attack Washington first. Is it also the nearest American city?

	03-07-2002 22:16									#15
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Indeed, capitals do not auto raze. Washington is not the nearest city, but it is close enough. Just have to bypass the one with the dyes, but can attack Washington directly from either side at the moment.

	03-07-2002 22:17									#16
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My honorable friend Mr. Unorthodox is correct, and indeed, orthodox in his judgements. It is imperative that we capture the enemy capital first. Eight Archers will work, I believe. Perhaps nine should be taken along, to be safe, but no more. Spearmen must accompany this army of archers, and as soon as the capital falls, they must fortify against a possible enemy counterattack. I trust that the plans will work.

As I have said, we can not at this time create detailed plans unless we are given a map or some idea about the terrain around Washington.

	03-07-2002 22:27									#17
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Capital should always be the first target IMO.

After the capital I find it is a good tactic to attack cities in such a way that their new capital becomes isolated and the remaining cities are too far away from their capital to be of any use.

Once we take the capital attack the cities nearest the new capital.

Unless of course they only have about five cities.

	03-07-2002 22:30									#18
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quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx Ideally, our attack will occur right as a settler/spear team leaves (they rarely turn back), thus preventing pop rush and reducing defenders.

Maybe we can time the attack accordingly. Keep our attack force posted nearby, but out of American territory, and time the declaration of war for completion of a settler party in DC. (If we got writing and set up an embassy as our plans neared readiness -- a big if, I guess -- we would get a window into Washington production.)

	03-07-2002 22:33									#19
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quote: As I have said, we can not at this time create detailed plans unless we are given a map or some idea about the terrain around Washington.

Very true.

"One who does not know the mountains and forests, gorges and defiles, swamps and wetlands cannot advance the army. "
--Sun Tzu 'The Art of War'

	03-07-2002 22:38									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Robber Baron Maybe we can time the attack accordingly. Keep our attack force posted nearby, but out of American territory, and time the declaration of war for completion of a settler party in DC. (If we got writing and set up an embassy as our plans neared readiness -- a big if, I guess -- we would get a window into Washington production.)

It would not likely be worth the cost incurred to a) set up the embassy b) pay to investigate the city c) delay the attack any further

Our cash would be better served in purchasing us some better tech, upgrading units, or just plain research at this point.

Those of us who use early rushes already see that things are likely a bit slower than we would normally like.

	03-07-2002 22:48									#21
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Please, please, don't discuss strategy. Look at the maps and discuss tactics. We already know enough of strategy.

	03-07-2002 22:50									#22
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quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx I have yet to see a capital with more than three units this early in the game. At least when it is my first target. If we target another city first, you can bet they will reinforce the capital quickly. As it is, they will have at least two turns to reinforce before our attack, why give them more? We must strike the Capital because it is the most productive city, it will not auto-raze, and therefore the most damaging, and most profitable blow we can deliver. With any luch our second target will either be the 'new' capital, or have an improvement, therefore preventing auto-raze. Also, we do not want to cross boarders untill after we declare war. No need to tarnish our reputation in that way especially so early in the game. We need more info before deciding which square to go to. Should wait till just before the attack, 10 or so turns before.

i regularly find early capitals with 4+ spearmen and warriors. and about the razing, my point was not to raze cities, but just to attack one or two cities before we start on the capital. it doesnt matter if we raze or capture them. it would draw units from washington, or paris. hopefully, we would have one or two elites from it as well.

	03-07-2002 23:00									#23
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quote: Originally posted by jdd2007 i regularly find early capitals with 4+ spearmen and warriors. and about the razing, my point was not to raze cities, but just to attack one or two cities before we start on the capital. it doesnt matter if we raze or capture them. it would draw units from washington, or paris. hopefully, we would have one or two elites from it as well.

Do you normally target the capital first? It has been my experience that it is not fortified that heavily till you declare war, then it is built up more. Yes, you may find 4 units, but rarely all spears, thus of less threat to our archers.

I would contend that, IMO, attacking a city on the way to the capital is not worth the risk of losing an archer in the process. If an elite spawned, we would indeed have a possibility to get a GL, and that would be excellent. If, however, we lose an archer, we may lose the ability to take the capital. I see it as being a gamble.

I would, rather, suggest taking the Capital, assessing our losses, then, if possible, taking the next city, but leaving New York (with the dyes) alone and suing for it while negotiating peace.

	03-07-2002 23:07									#24
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Please, please, don't discuss strategy. Look at the maps and discuss tactics. We already know enough of strategy.

I do not think we have enough info to discuss this, yet.

For now all I can say is that we do NOT want to attack Washington from across that river, cross the river first.

France may have a river there too, can't tell just yet.

	03-07-2002 23:59									#25
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quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx It would not likely be worth the cost incurred to a) set up the embassy b) pay to investigate the city c) delay the attack any further

True.
Still, if we had scouts lurking on the outskirts of DC territory, we might be able to catch the settler party on the way out.
Query: how close can one plant a stack near AI territory before your soon-to-be enemy-civ detects it and starts fortifying its defenses?

	04-07-2002 00:49									#26
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The SMC asked for 6 archers and 2 spearmen.

He is well versed in early warfare, so I trust his appraisal. For what it's worth, my experience agrees with his. I would guess that we will find 2 spear and 1 archer in Washington or Paris (all regular). Fortified on grassland in the case of Washington. We will likely lose 1 archer, maybe 2.

	04-07-2002 02:17									#27
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Washington should really be our first target and we should hit them so hard that they will NEVER come back and become a threat, I call for a complete anihilation of the Americans, then the French...

	04-07-2002 02:20									#28
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The Americans deserve annhilation.
The French, however, might serve as effective vassals -- for tech trading and alliance possibilities. After, of course, they have been whittled down to size and stripped of their techs and gold.

	04-07-2002 02:22									#29
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Your lust for blood can serve you well, have you looked at the Hawk Party?

However, there is much to be gained by letting America live. They have techs which we lack, cities we can take, and could produce more units for us to, um, train on, thereby making Great Leaders. There death may still come, but now is not the time. Besides, why kill them when we can make them the laughing stock of the world?

	04-07-2002 02:29									#30
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quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx Your lust for blood can serve you well, have you looked at the Hawk Party?

I think I'm more of an Imperialist in temperament. A strong supporter of the UFC, though.

quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx However, there is much to be gained by letting America live. They have techs which we lack, cities we can take, and could produce more units for us to, um, train on, thereby making Great Leaders. There death may still come, but now is not the time. Besides, why kill them when we can make them the laughing stock of the world?

I'm assuming, given the constrained nature of the territory/lack of wide open spaces, that we won't be able to afford to keep two vassal states so close to home. And I'd rather clip the wings of the Expansionist Americans. I'd say Vichy France might make a comfy neighbor.
(With apologies to the true sons and daughters of DeGaulle.)