26-07-2000 23:06									#1
	Med Mod 4 problems/issues Suffering from ads?

well besides my problem with wonders not actually getting built i found another hiccup. some of the units appear to come twice in the technology tree. take SDI for instance. i found i was able to build the SDI shortly after i discovered quantum physics (which gave me nukes). after building the SDI building in several of my cities (and it was actually built not like the wonders merely saying they were), i discovered some technology that once again gave me SDI. now being at work, i don't recall the name of that tech but it did state quite clearly that i could build SDI even after i was already building it. something else, i can't build the jet bombers anymore. i found once i discovered the tech to build stealth bombers, it had rendered obsolete bombers and bombers!! i'm assuming it meant, the B17 and B52 bombers.

as for the wonders, if it's a modern wonder that was added i can't built it...but then again neither can the computer. sure i can put it in my build queue and pay for it or just wait...but once it's done, it plays the movie and then doesn't actually get built. i even cheated and had the city editor try and complete the wonder but still it won't appear in my city. oddly enough, the computer wont' built a wonder even after it failed to be complete. the indians tried to build ghandi's thingy, completed it and then nothing...i spied on every city they had and it wasn't to be found anywhere. and to top it off, i had 1 of my cities building it at the same time and it just continued on being built. so now i have a building queue that has every new modern wonder still listed in it. i can't build any of them...and that does hurt!! so wes, if u can think of anything that might be causing this hiccup please do assist. if u want me to send u a copy of my saved game file, fine...just let me know...

has anyone else had this problem??

	28-07-2000 19:34									#2
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SDI should now be available with Superconductor. I had forgotten to edit the improvement text to reflect this. Thanks for the info.

The B17 replaces the B52 for the Med mod 4. It's just the way the units occur in the timeline. The B52 would look funny coming out with the WWII-era units, and there isn't enough space in the timeline to squeeze it in between Aerodynamics and Adv. Composites.
If you want it in, you can delete the can't_build line in the units text entry, and adjust its values to suit you.
Paul has been checking the units text against the values in the Med charts spreadsheets, and found quite a number of errors. The only major ones were for the Helicopter, which I had not adjusted at all for the mod.
John (Discovery One) has told me that he will not be able to write up any more historical gls for the mod. This leaves the ones for advances, improvements and units undone. The only ones that bother me are the units. I had planned on doing them myself if need be, but I am tied up with schoolwork right now, and don't know when I can get to them. If anyone wants to volunteer to do those, I would be grateful.

I am just getting to the place in my game where you get the wonders that you reported problems with. I am building the Master Race now. I will report on what happens.

Btw everyone, Subs are a force in the game now. I sunk a Dreadnought with a U-boat, though barely. The AIs will be building them too, so you had better have some Destroyers in with your capital ships.

Finally, how is the timeline flowing in your games? It's a little fast in mine, and I am thinking about reducing the gold coefficient for governments by 10%. CD lowered it by 10% for his mod, but with the new trade goods things seem to be going too fast again. I am also piling up a little too much money as well, so this change would help with that too. The leading AIs are ahead of me tech-wise in my game, so they are piling it up as well, I assume.

	29-07-2000 00:05									#3
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Though i certainly agree that the B52 would be funny looking if it came out with the WWII units, at the same time it's just as bizarre going from a B17 to a B2 stealth bomber. perhaps we could tweak it that the B52 comes between the B17 and B2 but leave the B17 as strictly a bomber (aka remove it's ability to carry nukes) and have the B52 retain it's ability to carry nukes. at the same time, make the costs and perhaps abilities of the B17 less than it is now. essentially make the B17 a cheap bomber, the B52 a heavy bomber with the ability to drop nukes, and the B2 Stealth just a better version of the B52.

just a quick question, can someone refresh my memory on how to make the map size bigger. i know it was simple to do but i forgot how to do it.

	29-07-2000 09:22									#4
	Suffering from ads?

I guess we can make this the new thread for discussing the Med mod 4 until the Public Release is made.
Myself, I am still about where I was before in my game. It's very enjoyable, but each turn takes about 20 min. now. I am way ahead in the timeline, and each advance only takes about 2 turns, which is much faster than I planned on. I also have a much larger empire than I usually do, but the lead AIs are still keeping ahead of me tech-wise, so I think something needs to be done.

Martock, I remember you stating in the Intro thread that the AIs were not building any farms. With all the problems that you have listed, I wonder if there is not something wrong in your setup somewhere. I would suggest you go through the Intro and Install readme again, and also read the file descriptions on my webpage to make sure you have everything installed correctly.

Btw, I have had my IExplorer and Outlook Express go down on me permanently, so I have had to get Netscape and its accompanying email program. I imported my address book from Outlook Express, but I haven't tested it out yet.
The Netscape stuff appears to be working fine, so I hope that everything will transition smoothly. However, if you have trouble sending me mail, or don't get a reply within a few days, post here and ask me if I got it.

I am making notes of changes to make in the mod, but I want to go farther in my current game before making major adjustments. I want to make all the changes needed, and get all the values for the units, etc. matched up with the Charts before posting the next beta.
Paul has set himself up as the quality control inspector for the mod, something which was badly needed, so hopefully what you read in the Charts, gls etc. will be what you get by the time this thing is formally released.
I am really bogged down with schoolwork right now, so it will probably be a week or so before this next beta gets put out.

I would like to get somemore reports on how peoples games are going. Mostly how the timeline is flowing, gold and time to discover advances.
I am also looking for a volunteer to write up historical gls for the new units. Any WWII enthusiasts out there who want to do something enjoyable? Believe me, it's fun writing these things when they are on a subject you like.

Martock, I will take a look at re-doing the bombers. I never liked taking the B52 out of the game, I just never had that moment of inspiration on how to arrange things. I may be on to something now due to your suggestions. I will report on it when I have my thoughts settled.

	29-07-2000 18:35									#5
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Wes,

i restarted my game the other day and am almost at the point in time where i'll soon be able to build the master race wonder that i had problems with before. i'll let u know if this issue crops up again.

in this new game the computer is building farms so i don't think that's a problem anymore. i've also noticed one other thing... there are boats EVERYWHERE...i can't sail outta my port without bumping into one of them...i've seen a couple of stacks of 4-5 old triemes and a few stacks of carvels and gallons...while scanning thru this game to make sure the computer was building farms (i was on a island of my own) i even saw several stacks of 9 land units in this case the leading unit was calvary. it seems the computer is more content to build large stacks of stuff now. i'm rather happy with that.

wes, what happend with movement though?? prior to med 4 my horse archers could move 2 spaces thru forests and the later version (i forgot what they were called) could go about 3 or for spaces in forest...now, they can't. i found that space movement very useful for early exploration...did you change them on purpose or by accident?

as for me, gold seems to be flowing rather nicely but having lots of trade routes and with buildings that produce gold, that will happen. the advances seem to go ok.

i have noticed something odd (but since i have yet to finish a game using Med 4 i'm not sure how true this is) but almost every computer opponent i meet in this game loves me...it maybe due to the wonders though since a few do have that affect but darn, it's hard being a jerk in this game i'm playing now...it's been a long time since i have been able to trade with nations of the world and NOT have all my routes pirated.

well enough for now. i'll restart my game again tonight (as i want to actually build a map) and see how it goes again.

	29-07-2000 23:56									#6
	Put an end to popups!

Have played twice with new med mod 4.0, on easier levels to check out changes, get used to new stuff. I have noticed civ's in 1 game almost all religious/friendly. In 2nd game all were slaver/aggressive. Have been playing with 8 civ's on large map. 1st game easy. 2nd game deity.

Cannot recall seeing this happen in Med Mod 3.0 but will play a game with 3.0 and double check.

WesW and all who helped put the Med Mod's together. The effort spent is very much appreciated. Has anyone ever tried modifying the wonder movies? Looked for programs to create/modify avi files, but no luck yet. Can't help much with other stuff in mod but noticed that had not been done much yet. Probably be something simple like changing text at end of movie to reflect actual changes for new wonders. Again many thanks to everyone for putting this mod out.

	30-07-2000 01:22									#7
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Scratch the part about editing avi files. Found a few editors. Quickly realized i need a whole lot more processor power than i have now. Guess it really is time to upgrade my 200mhz.

	30-07-2000 01:47									#8
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Still playing the MedMod, so I don't know how much of this will help, but the ModernMod is an extension of the timeline for the MedMod...

Just reached the 1700s and I am researching Electronics.

All the civs hate me, though its probably because whenever one of them pirated my trade routes, I have the tendency to take it personally - but even civs that haven't pirated me still do not like me.

As a side note, my last game (pre-Mod), I was able to get most of the civs to get an alliance with me.

My opinion is that there is too much gold in the game, though reducing trade goods or the gold settings is a partial solution - but it will effect everyone.

Science-wise, I'm in the lead, but two other civs are close, based on what I can gift them. They may have a couple of advances that I am not aware of.

Happiness is an ongoing issue, due to empire size and war discontent - but I do prefer that setting (thanks to CD).

However, I find that I have the luxury of building lots of stuff with the mines in forests, so its an easily-handled situation. There was a suggestion to increase happiness improvement costs, but how much emphasis does the AI place on maintaining happiness? If it is a high priority, then that would further cripple the AI, at the cost of military and other improvements that help in a tangible way.

I also think that my lead on the powergraph is due to a large military, because of increased production. I haven't seen too many stacks, but that is because I cleared off my continent of rivals. Currently, I'm taking the offensive to another civ, and am on the verge of eliminating it. I'm saving the strong opponents for later - I want to see if they have the military to repel me, and I figure that I will give them time to build.

I do not build any more mines, since I think it unbalances the game, since the AI doesn't build them. Very tempting though in the early game, because it does jump start your economy. Maybe an increase in price for them would be in order.

As for military, the problem still remains for me that it isn't too difficult to take cities, or hold the ones I have - but my style is the same as Wes (build infrastructure/production, defense, then offense), so when I do go on the offensive, I hit and hit hard. Add to the fact that the AI doesn't seem to be able to maintain a prolonged amphibeous assault and the outcome isn't in doubt. But the naval aspect is 100% better, and I like the fact that I have to maintain a large navy. I'm constantly being harrassed by ships with bombards and piracy, but I do like that now. It's the price to pay for leading the game, I figure. After all, the object is to win, not be buddy-buddy with everyone.

My experience is based on a single game though - conditions vary based on what happens in the early game. And I am on Emperor, so Deity will be more difficult.

My feeling is the same as in the past. Getting to the point of being able to overun the AI opponent is the real challenge in CTP - but I do enjoy getting to that point. From what I see in other games, (such as SMAC) the same problem exists.

There are a whole host of variables to take into account - that much is for sure!!

All in all, it is much more enjoyable!!

	30-07-2000 02:54									#9
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Hey guys,
The current game I am playing with the modern mod just reached the point that a couple of the wonders that can't be built are available. I tried to build ghandi's thing, and the ai tried to build master race, and neither of them got built. I'm not sure I want to try ford's assembly thing which just became available, its to depressing not to be able to build these modern wonders. Just a thought- could it be the number of wonders that is causing a problem? I guess a little later I will start another game and use the cheat mode to check this out. Arrggghhh- the game I am playing is so good!
Another thought- I am all for the B52 being put back in, I like it.

BigJ

	30-07-2000 05:29									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Another question for all who have played the game with the Medieval/Modern Mod...

What global settings do you find to offer the most interesting game

World size
Trade Goods (Many-Few, Uniform-Diverse)
Wet-Dry
Warm-Cold
Continents-Islands
Ocean-Land

I'm interested in hearing input on this, as it might offer some differences in the level of challenges within the game. In my current game I had one other civ on my continent, and I took it out fairly quickly. One civ did manage to land a stack of 6 units on my continent and it took a city - however, the city was back in my hands within a couple of turns.

	30-07-2000 06:47									#11
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Well, kinda bad news, I guess.....
I got busy with the wonders.txt and the cheat mode, and I think I figured something out. In the wonders.txt, none of the wonders after equal rights can be built. I then took out three wonders before equal rights, and then I could build the three after it, suggesting that it is the number of wonders that is the problem. If I counted right it is a limit of 64, meaning that 13 of the current ones need to be taken out (oh, what fun). I was really in a hurry when I did this, so if anyone else could confirm it that would help.

BigJ

	30-07-2000 07:04									#12
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

thanks very much for vindicating me BigJ as i was beginning to think my system went bonkers and i was dreading the thought of yet another install.

there is one small catch though...i did in my original game get to the point of building wonders AFTER the equal rights act BUT these were the wonders from the game...aka the original ones. so the wonders here that are affected are strictly limited to the new ones in this version. i'm sure there is a way to increase the amount of wonders...but it would bite if that was the actual limit...it's good to know at least you figured out the reasoning behind it.

	30-07-2000 07:49									#13
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I think what goes on is that the first 64 wonders in wonders.txt work, and any after that don't. So wonders after equal rights in the game, the original ones, are still before equal rights in the wonders.txt, so they are not affected.

AAAArrrgggghhhh....... I tried to take out one wonder before equal rights that was already built to see if my great saved game could continue, but alas, as far as I know it cannot if I want the new wonders. When I tried this I had the romans try to build ghandis thingy. I am playing a hotseat game with 3 humans (I play them all, as I give myself a good challenge, hehe) and 5 ai's. Anyway, the romans were the first player, and when I ended the turn, the egyptians, the second player, were skipped, and it was the greeks turn (third player). What happened was that the egyptians had mao's book and of course had their wgf sliders maxed out, and all the cities revolted. I checked some greek cities, and they had wonders that they shouldn't have had, including mao's book. I guess taking wonders out of wonders.txt and loading a saved game gets who has what wonder all screwed up. And it was such a good game..... I guess I will keep it just in case someone figures out how to increase the number of wonders or something, if that is indeed the problem.

	30-07-2000 11:46									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Well, needless to say, this news about the Wonders is VERY disappointing. I am going to keep playing my current game to see for myself, but if two people have run into the same problem, and a power of 2 seems to be the crucial point, then it's probably a code limitation that can't be fixed by us.

I also didn't realize that Mao's book would allow you to max out your wgf bars without penalty. I meant for that wonder to act like a happiness one, and only affect unhappiness due to overcrowding. If we have to take out wonders, this will be the first one to go. If the cutoff point begins with Equal Rights, that will be 13 wonders.
The AIs seem to put the lowest priority on happiness as far as city improvements go, so I added a lot of happiness wonders to try and get the AIs to keep happiness up that way. I will try and check my current game to see if this is working.
As far as wonders to cut, I will take out the ones which only affect certain circumstances, like the Trans-Atlantic Cable, or have specialized effects, like the US Constitution and Gandhi's Rebellion. The Statue of Liberty and Disneyland could be done without as well if they had to be. Ditto for the Crusades and the Inquisition.

There are 5 original wonders that I think we can do just as easily without.
No.1 is Hollywood. I mean, does the AI build many Television improvements?
No.2 is the Dino Park, whose effect so much depends on the city it is built in. This wonder is great for the human, but I don't think the AI knows how to use it.
No.3 the AI Entity, which seems to spell doom for the player that builds it.
No.4 the Egalitarian Proclamation, whose effect is specialized and short-lived, and
No.5 the Nanite Defuser, since the AIs don't use nukes effectively and the premise is pretty far-fetched.
Take out these 5, plus
1 Mao's Book
2 Inquisition
3 Crusades
4 Statue of Liberty
5 US Constitution
6 Gandhi's Rebellion
7 Trans-Atlantic Cable
8 Disneyland

I think we could do without these and not take away substantially from the game. What do the rest of you think?
[This message has been edited by WesW (edited July 30, 2000).]

	30-07-2000 13:51									#15
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WesW,
I pretty much agree with your selection of wonders to remove. The trade wonders (crusades, disney, dino) I don't even use myself really. Ditto for others like ghandi's, unless I need a quick boost, cause the celebrate for a number of turns flag lets you max your wgf bars. I usually don't use hollywood either, and by the time trans-atlantic is available I can solve distance unhappiness problems by rush-buying improvements. I do, however, like to have embassies with everyone, and taking out the wonder (us constitution or statue, I can't remember at the moment) near the modern age that gives them I'm not so sure about. It leaves a gap between philosophers stone and esp center, and I am usually too busy with other stuff to want to have to send diplomats around the world at that time. But then again, philosophers stone does come early and helps with science by trading and gives you knowledge of other civs that is crucial early on to figure out how you're doing.

Inquisition and mao's book are really kind of dangerous if you're not ahead. If an ai player researches the obsolete advance while you have your wgf bars maxed, well, there goes your civ, as my other game demonstrated when the egyptians lost mao's book. Also while you have them they are very powerful, and the negative science effect you can counter by reducing wages and getting more people for scientists and conquering. So I wouldn't miss these too much.

An idea though- WesW, if you intended them to help with happiness you could just use the reduce overcrowding flag, maybe for about 5 or more, at least enough that they are differentiated from a normal happiness improvement, and maybe give them another effect (besides the already included science penalty). Basically I was just thinking that it wouldn't hurt to have some more 'interesting' wonders, besides just normal happiness ones (for ex- darwin's wonder, which besides increasing science also decreases happiness, seems pretty wicked to me.

Actually, the only one I might miss would be the AI entity. I like to have one wonder that makes everyone content. Its mainly a personal preference though- I just love to see a rival civ get into a big civil war when it revolts. There are always mind controller improvements anyway. Once before I changed it, eliminating the chance to revolt, but giving it some substantial negative side effects (I don't remember what they were now).

In all, I think your choices are good WesW, though I wouldn't mind changing a few things around either. By the way, I took some of the wonders out to start a new game, but would it cause problems if they are still in the ai files? (I hope not!)

	31-07-2000 09:37									#16
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I much more enjoy the ancient and medieval eras of gameplay so I can't speak to the missing modern age wonders issue.

But looking at the ones you chose for deletion Wes, I think you offer good suggestions.

Let me get this right though.

1. The game engine or code will work with the fist 64 wonders listed in the wonders.txt file.
2. So, to assure that those wonders do work as intended, the wonders.txt file needs to be edited to list just the first 64 wonders or to have it edited to remove any that surpass 64 in number.

My question is, if wonders.txt is edited to remove wonders selectively, will that require editing other files also or will that be sufficient to allow the game to play without crashing due to wonder-related problems?

------------------

'Blood will run'

	30-07-2000 23:22									#17
	Increase the size of your Attachments

You can just remove wonders until you have 64 wonders left. Don't forget to also change the number at the top of wonder.txt. Once you have done that I think it should work. There are other references to wonders such as wondericon.txt and the helpboxes in script.slc, but as far as I know the game should function normally even if those files contain references to non-existing wonders. But you can remove the entries for deleted wonders from those files just to be on the safe side.

Another thing is that the hyperlinks in the Great Library are indexed based on the order in which the wonders appear in wonder.txt. That means that if you take wonders out of wonder.txt you can be taken to a GL entry for another wonder than the one you click on. But that should not be a serious problem for you. Although it should of course be fixed for the release version of the mod.

	31-07-2000 18:24									#18
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

i would hate to see the U.S. Constitution, Statue of Liberty, and the trans atlantic cable go...i wish there was some way to grab mr. orges attn and just ask if the limit for wonders is 64 and if that'll be the cap for CTP2...i hope not...

	01-08-2000 01:04									#19
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Hi Wes,

While I agree with Martock about the U.S. Constitution, more from sentimental value, hey I am an American, I think the Trans-Alantic Cable should definitely be kept. I generally play on an oversized map, and you need the Confusion Academy and the Trans-Alantic Cable type Wonders so that you can build up to your largest extent. Also, if you end up on an island, and you need to build cities on a somewhat distant continent, you will also need the Confusions Academy and then the Trans-Alantic Cable to keep your cities from revolting while you are discovering some of the later governments that don't have the big distance penalty.

So, the long and the short of it is that I think you need to keep the Trans-Alantic Cable in and maybe eliminate one of the other Wonders. I think if you eliminate just one of the Happiness Wonders and supplement it by making a different happiness Wonder last longer, you may actually accomplish you goals anyway.

Timothy Pintello

	01-08-2000 06:39									#20
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

If the Trans-Atlantic Cable is that useful, I will leave it in. I was trying to decide which wonder had to go to make a place for it, and saw the Dummy wonder I had added to solve the notification bug.
I thus decided to remove the Dummy wonder, and put the Trans-Atlantic Cable in its place. I also gave it the Statue's effect of giving you an embassy with everyone. I think this gives the best remedy to everyone's wishes. You will not be notified when someone starts the Cable now, but it's better than not having it, or one of the others, at all.

The only change I have made is to the Wonder text, commenting out all the lines dealing with the deleted wonders. This appears to be all that needs to be done, aside from re-doing the gl links that Paul mentioned.
I will try and get a reply from someone at Activision regarding this limit, both as to how it may be fixed, and if it is in CtP2 as well. In other news....

I lowered the gold coeffecient for all governments by 5%. This may not be enough to make a significant difference, but the timeline seems to flow pretty well for the first half of the game as is, and I my top priority is not to mess anything up. I will have to start another game due to the wonder limit problem, and it will take some time to see how things go.

I also raised the cost of Renaissance age happiness wonders by 25%, and those for later ages by 33%. I lowered the overcrowding effect of the Sensorium from 5 to 3, and increased its cost about 10% rather than simply raising its cost to 27,000.
The Sensorium and Teleportation now have the same effects and cost.

I raised the cost of mines in the game. The cost-to-benefit ratios are detailed in the Terrain readme and in the terrain gls. The biggest effect was on the basic land mines and sea mines. Sea mines' cost-to-benefits are now the same as that of basic land mines, which caused a large increase in their cost.
Overall, it should be a bigger incentive to upgrade your mines, and sea cities will not be such a huge bargain.

Btw, Paul, I have updated all the necessary gls except for the links thing.

I am going to re-do the bomber line, and update the readmes to reflect it, and then I will post everything as a new beta. As it is, you can't have a meaningful game with the wonder situation in the current beta.

	01-08-2000 08:48									#21
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The 4th beta is uploaded at my homepage! (That didn't take long, did it?)
The advances gls have not been updated to account for the deleted wonders, so remember to go by the Advances Chart, which *has* been updated.
I have put the B52 back in the game as the Jet Bomber, available with Jet Propulsion and obsolete when the Space Bomber becomes available. The Stealth bomber has the same range and power as the Jet Bomber, but costs 33% more because it is stealthy.
I also made the Autobahn a second preq for Jet Propulsion, to try and make it so that you have all the WWII-era stuff before you can get the Jet Bomber.

All the gls and readmes should be updated to reflect all the new changes, except for the ones dealing with the deleted wonders I mentioned above.

	02-08-2000 08:38									#22
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Bug Alert!
The 4th beta contains a bug in the Wonder text. I have posted a corrected version at my homepage as the 4.0.4.1 beta. The correction is also noted in the file description.
Apparently, you can't have out-commented lines in the wonder text (other than the 'wonder done' line). If you do, the AIs won't build any of the wonders listed below the first out-comment.
If you are a little peeved at this, you're not the only one. I had played about 6 hours in a game before I realized that the AIs weren't gobbling up the wonders like they normally did. And reloading the game with the corrected file doesn't appear to get the AIs to start building the other wonders, either. You have to start a new game.

Also, I have received a crash report that was due to a video card set to 32bit color. The guy received a message saying that the tgas for the mod couldn't could not be found. When he set the video card to 24bit color, which is what the tgas are set saved as, the mod worked. Anyone have any ideas about this?
[This message has been edited by WesW (edited August 01, 2000).]

	03-08-2000 10:25									#23
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At least: I am going for "Advanced Mobile Warefare".

Either this advance (and the AI Surv) are comming too late or Space Flight (and adv. Composite and Space Colonies) are comming too early. I tend most to the first.

Personally I think AMW shouldn't have AIS as prerequest, but more like adv. ceramics and plastic.

AIS could come after Space Flight and m'be one more.

Else - game is still going fine. Except for the Wonderbug.

	03-08-2000 18:37									#24
	Put an end to popups!

Hey Wes

I have some correction to my previos.

After a look on you advance-chart, I can see, that something prevents other in a very tricky way.

I'll have a closer look and hopefully some comments/suggestions tomorrow.

What I want is something like:

Ability to rechears for modern tanks, stealth sea and air units first then space units.

Means to postpone the Space era a little, m'be that much that it will available only after the Sea Colonies but at least after "modern land war units".

	04-08-2000 03:58									#25
	Remove this text

I have the advances set up so that the Tank shold be the last Genetic Age land unit you get. Actually, I think it should be the last Genetic unit period. The Diamond age then starts off with the defensive land unit, the Plasmatica.

I am still fiddling with unit settings some. I adjusted the naval units last night. I decided to re-name the Dreadnought the Heavy Cruiser. It has the same stats basically, and the same sprite. It doesn't go obsolete until the Missile Cruiser is available, though.
I lowered the offensive power of the subs a little, and adjusted the settings for the Missile Cruiser and Battleship some. The Battleship is now a little more powerful than the Missile Cruiser in hand-to-hand combat. I mean, if anything afloat today got within the range of the New Jersey's 16" guns, it would be in trouble. The Missile Cruiser has active air-defense and can see Subs, neither of which the Battleship can do.
The Battleship doesn't go obsolete until the Plasma Destroyer is available, so once you get the Battleship you have a choice of small, medium and large ships to choose from.
Destroyer-Missile Frigate, Heavy Cruiser-Missile Cruiser, and Battleship-Plasma Destroyer are the small, medium and capital ships, respectively.
I had the thought of making a middle-sized ship line for a long time, and decided to put it in after seeing how long it took to build Battleships in my last game. This is also about how things went historically. Battleships were moth-balled after WWII not only because of the emergence of the Carrier, but because they were so expensive to keep in service. The U.S. battleships were quite useful up through Desert Storm, but were finally decommissioned because smaller, cheaper-to-run ships could do the same things.
I decided to use the Cruiser sprite from Harlan's WWII units pack for the Missile Frigate. It looks more like the real thing than the Destroyer sprite I had stuck in there previously.
For those of you who might have wondered why subs have no bombard capability, it is because of how the AIs use them. If a ship can bombard, the AIs try to use them to bombard your cities. This meant that they would park their subs next to your cities, and you would discover them when you tried to move a ship in or out of that city. Well, once a sub is discovered, it's dead meat, so the AIs were not getting anything out of them.
I am irritated at the way the AIs keep throwing away their Destroyers and Dreadnoughts against my coastal cities' Cannons and Howitzers, but I don't have anymore ideas on how to get them to stop, other than to take away their 'bombard land' capabilities.
It's really annoying because I have exactly the opposite problem with how the AIs use their land units. If they don't know they will win, they usually won't attack. With the huge numbers of units they build now, I could have been overrun in my last game if the AIs had been willing to take a chance on losing a stack initially to break through my frontline defenses.

I have also re-arranged the Med Charts so that they are easier to read, and the improvements should print out on 1 page now.

Btw, for those of you relatively new to the forums, the Birdman's English skills have improved dramatically since when he first started coming here last year.
Myself, I know a few words on Spanish, but that's it as far as a second language. Of course, anything other than American English is just a local dialect on the internet, isn't it? (Now I will get banned for sure!)

	04-08-2000 10:41									#26
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Thanks Wes...


But to work: You can't be serious. Tanks are modern units - okay between modern and genetic.

Hoovertank should be that last unit. That would fit nicely with the Space Fighter and the War Walker.

If we only take a look on when a certain military-unittype might be "invented", I think that it should be something like this (havn't mentioned all):

Wormhole Probe, all real "Star War" units.

Space Fighter, Space Marine, Hoovertank, War Walker, Plasma Destroyer.

Space Plane, Space Engineer.

Sea Engineer, Stealth units air/sea, Tank, Interceptor, Spy Satelite, Paratrooper, Artillery, Missile Cruiser.

Mobile SAM, Helicopter, Marine, Airbourne.

Earlier: No changes - seems to fit very well.

And for the game:

I'm now at year 2150 (+- a couple of years). I'm dropped down as no. 7 in rank.

3 times I have been attack "without provocations".

First time the leading civ used a hell lot of cargo pods, sending more than 15 units in ONE TURN right in my center - and more follows the next 5 turns. Units of different type (stormtrooper, mec. infantery, artillery). Making stack of 6-8. Hell what a fight.

2.nd time no. 2 in rank has succeded in placing 12 artillery units in some of my "black" spots. I was at war with him, and if was pure accident, that I ran into him. Lucky for me, as the place where close to my capitol - too close.

The AI uses special units a lot - (the normal: spy and lawyer) AND I have seen Infectors(!) around.

One time a day (after saving - just before ending) I enable cheat-mode a take a view over the "planet":

Concentrations of 40-50 units in small areas are not unusual. Ships are stacking.

Well-well-well. This game just rocking.....

	04-08-2000 22:13									#27
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Birdman, I don't see your problem with the current unit progression, except for the Tank. Look at the Land units page of the Med Charts. Everything is laid out in just the order that you gave the units above.
I have Armor (WWII-era T-34 Russian medium tank) for the Modern age, the Tank for the Genetic age unit, and the Hovertank for the Diamond age. They are the last land units, or about the last in the T-34's case, because they are the best attack and conquer units, and I don't want the "race to tank" scenario that Celestial Dawn mentions in his readme. I have set things up so that you get defensize units before offensive in the later ages, since power doubles from one age to the next. As it is, with artillery support and a number advantage, the defensive units of one age could probably take cities from units of the previous age, and we don't want the game to effectively end whenever someone gets one key advance.

Btw, I have the Med Charts set up now so that each of them prints out on one a single page, except for the government page, and all of the info you really need is on the first page of it.

	04-08-2000 23:39									#28
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Someone mentioned about the fact we now have two amphibourous land units (two units that can attack from boats) and wanted some sort of differentiation between them.
Well how about allowing one to go through shallow land this would be for the latter unit, which would may make sense.
(if you wanted it to be realistic you could add a fuel concept but this would affect their land ability as well, could even have an infrantry unit with a jet pack even this way)

Two ideas in one day, definitely need to go back to Portugal!

	04-08-2000 23:40									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Repeated post here can a forum leader please delete this thanks
[This message has been edited by MadWoodster (edited August 05, 2000).]

	05-08-2000 14:04									#30
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I'm able to send unit into space - seen sea cities and space cites for turns and turns (nearly 100) and first now I'm seeing the first "real" tanks. Of course the leading civ has hat it - but only for the last 20-25 turns!

This thing just triggers me.

Tanks ARE before space cities! So if we should keep units in the orden they have now - then the ability to build CITIES in space should be "kicked back" to somewhere late in genetic age.