08-07-2002 19:02									#31
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That's: "Mark, that...."

Dino: About 50 % is north sea oil. What are "imports" in your source ? ex-EU ?

	08-07-2002 19:07									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Roland Dino: About 50 % is north sea oil. What are "imports" in your source ? ex-EU ?

http://www.medea.be/site.html?page=2&lang=en&doc=776

If you know of a better source, please share it. I'm not sure how good this one is.

	08-07-2002 19:11									#33
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc It's not my fault that you are leaching off the past glories of your Spartan betters.

i'll have to repeat my suggestions, it seems...

	08-07-2002 19:20									#34
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No big contradiction there, I just wonder about the big difference in 1998/99 there. Add namely UK north sea oil as EU production... and the import of refined products, which makes the streams difficult to follow.

I have some numbers here compiled by exxon and german stats, but only in print.

	08-07-2002 19:22									#35
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mark: forget about the spartan thing - I still wonder what your ancestors had to do with it....

	08-07-2002 19:24									#36
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quote: I still wonder what your ancestors had to do with it....

	08-07-2002 19:28									#37
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG i'll have to repeat my suggestions, it seems...

I know the history, Mark. The Athenians and Spartans were the ones responsible for the defeat of the Persians, not the Macedonians. So why are you gloating about the Persian Wars when your ancestors had nothing to do with thier conclusion?

	08-07-2002 19:30									#38
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Markos,

I like your new signature!

Problem is though with the people spending so much time on this Forum, there is hardly any free time to actually read an accurate history book .

Besides the fact that there are no accurate books out there...

	08-07-2002 19:32									#39
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please try to put a smiley or two in your trolls

unless of course you want to open a serious discussion, in which case feel free to start the thread....

and to get you started
http://history.macedonia.gr/main.html

	08-07-2002 19:38									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Roland Btw, what's this american obsession with dissing europe ? If The US were only half as great as Safire claims, why bother about what we say or think?

I agree. It's like England and Scotland: the Scots always want England to fail, and gloat when we lose, but we are really ambivalent about them, because we KNOW that we are better.

	08-07-2002 19:40									#41
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We can start the discussion with you telling me where this page is contradicted by your source. Given that your page doesn't have a search function, it will make things easier for both of us.

	08-07-2002 20:05									#42
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The one thing I think is very true is that the Euro's are in love with sanctions, while the US has grown disillusioned with them. I think they may work with democracies, ala South Africa. But they have proven to be dismal failures with Castro and Saddam.

I don't know what Bush Sr. was thinking ten years ago, but if he thought that containment plus sanctions would work with Saddam, then history has proven him wrong.

	08-07-2002 20:10									#43
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The US is more sanction happy than us.

Cuba, Iran, Lybia, Syria. The EU has very limited to no sanctions on those compared to the US.

Then "Certification" in latin america.

And if Apartheid south africa was a democracy then I've got a tunnel to sell.

	08-07-2002 20:19									#44
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quote: [nationalist mode] They got overrun. We stopped the Turks. And you all should be thaaaaaankful. Without us you'd all be speaking turkish now. Where's that gratitude ? Bring it on! [/nationalist mode]

-Fat load of good that did us.

	08-07-2002 20:26									#45
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[nationalist mode]
Unthankful bastards.
[/nationalist mode]

	08-07-2002 23:29									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Roland Btw, what's this american obsession with dissing europe ? If The US were only half as great as Safire claims, why bother about what we say or think?

This "American obsession" which I sometimes also find annoying is born of several things (in no particular order):

1) seemingly near-constant criticism of US policy from Europe
2) the arrogance of power
3) a strange desire to be liked by the rest of the world
4) the belief that we're right and European critics are wrong
5) a belief that Europe should be just a little bit grateful for US action in WWII and the Cold War.
6) Americans tend to have more pride in their country than Europeans. The Brits, in particular, seem to take twisted pleasure in belittling their country. Americans tend to love their country, even if they hate what the government is doing and rail against it daily. Hence the often prickly response to outside criticism.

2 and 3 together sure make for a strange mix.

6 is kinda where I'm coming from.

-Arrian

	09-07-2002 00:13									#47
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that's what I found too when dealing with Americans.

	09-07-2002 00:23									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian The Brits, in particular, seem to take twisted pleasure in belittling their country.

I can assure you there is nothing twisted about good, healthy, self-loathing.

	09-07-2002 00:55									#49
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Self-criticism, yes. Self-loathing... not so sure. You guys take it to a whole new level. It can be funny, though.

We're too "young" of a country to really rip our past mistakes apart in a properly amusing fashion (see the thread about Eddie Izzard in this very forum. Specifically, the bits about the beginning and end of the British Empire).

Marcus,

I'm disturbed that you agreed with me. About anything.

-Arrian

	09-07-2002 02:06									#50
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why?

I'm more than just an ignorant annoying and stupid bigot.

	09-07-2002 03:33									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus I'm more than just an ignorant annoying and stupid bigot.

I never considered you to be ignorant.

	09-07-2002 03:35									#52
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well, that's something at least

	09-07-2002 05:30									#53
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Dino, where is the contradiction?

since you refuse to start a new thread:
you said

quote: was the Spartans, not the Macedonians

the above contains two arguments(as i see it, correct if i'm wrong):
1) the separation of macedonians from greeks, something that is answered in the link that i provided above as well as this one http://history.macedonia.gr/faq.htm
2) that the key role(off all Greeks) in the Persians wars was that of the Spartans. yet, the very page that YOU link to says

quote: the Athenian fleet was probably the most important component of that victory

	09-07-2002 06:58									#54
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG since you refuse to start a new thread:

Why should I start another thread?

quote: you said quote: was the Spartans, not the Macedonians the above contains two arguments(as i see it, correct if i'm wrong): 1) the separation of macedonians from greeks,

Given the time period, I think that it is a valid seperation to make given the fact that a unified Greek State wasn't in existance at the time.

quote: 2) that the key role(off all Greeks) in the Persians wars was that of the Spartans.

Actually in one of my next posts after the one you quote, I give proper credit to Athens as well.

	09-07-2002 07:09									#55
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quote: a unified Greek State wasn't in existance at the time

what does nations have to do with states? are going to tell me that israelis suddenly appeared as a nation 50 years ago?

quote: I give proper credit to Athens as well

so you refuted yourself. ok

	09-07-2002 07:14									#56
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG quote: a unified Greek State wasn't in existance at the time what does nations have to do with states?

Nations don't have to be States and States don't have to be nations.

quote: quote: I give proper credit to Athens as well so you refuted yourself. ok

Macedonia still played no part in the Persian War. So the point still stands.

	09-07-2002 07:23									#57
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quote: Nations don't have to be States and States don't have to be nations.

that's what i said too. Macedonians were Greeks regardless of the existance of a unified Greek state

quote: Macedonia still played no part in the Persian War. So the point still stands.

so what? It was Greeks as a nation that won the Persian war

and btw. I'm a Greek. my ancestors were the ancient Greeks. unfortunately i cant trace my genealogy tree 2000 years back to see if my ancestors lived in Macedonia

	09-07-2002 12:35									#58
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I have traced my ancestors back 2000 years. I'm mostly Italo-Illyro-Germano-Slavic-Bohemian.

Arrian:

Good points, but I still wonder.....

"1) seemingly near-constant criticism of US policy from Europe"
"4) the belief that we're right and European critics are wrong"

We love to criticise. But on this side there are also pretty loud voices supporting the US position. Even Bush. I barely hear anything supporting our majority view from your side though...

"2) the arrogance of power"

Which is funny, because that power is quite limited. Only your rightwing and our leftwing nuts seem to believe it is overwhelming.

"3) a strange desire to be liked by the rest of the world"

Never undertood that one. But why then do virtually all americans piss off everyone else by constantly (rightfully or wrongly) telling them how much they suck compared to the US ?

"5) a belief that Europe should be just a little bit grateful for US action in WWII and the Cold War."

That's also a funny one, because on the other hand, we always hear from Americans that we are too tied into our history.

"6) Americans tend to have more pride in their country than Europeans...."

I wouldn't be so sure about that. But you definately make a lot more noise about it.

	09-07-2002 14:53									#59
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I think the ancestors of the modern Greeks are merely Slavs, not ancient Greeks. Just like the ancestors of the modern Egyptians are merely Arabs, not ancient Egyptians.

My ancestors would be any European peoples mixed, no chance anyone could be 100% teutonic/germanic, unless on the villages where your mother and you sister is the same thing though.

	09-07-2002 15:12									#60
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i dont know much about the actual connection of modern egyptians with ancient egyptians, but my people have been continuously speaking the same language(with some changes of course) the last 3000 years. and that's only an example of the connections between ancient greeks and modern greeks. the facts that slavs populated the balkans doesnt magically make the nations previously living in the area dissappear nor does mean that populations mixed. if you have something more than a generalization of what you assume about the egyptians let me know...