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gopher is offline gopher
Warlord
I eat my own poop
Dec 1999
time: 00:20
  Old Post 08-07-2002 10:31
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Myths of US Foreign Policy Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote:
Myth America 2002
By WILLIAM SAFIRE

The New York Times
July 8, 2002

LONDON

Here are a handful of myths that cause what's left of Europe's left to misperceive U.S. foreign policy:

Myth 1: America is temporarily dominated by self-serving isolationists who reject treaties designed by sensible Lilliputians to tie down the superpower Gulliver.

Reality: In the past decade, the U.S. saved Europe from becoming an economic vassal to Iraq, which was on its way to conquering Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. A few years later, as Europe temporized, we led NATO's defeat of Serbia's takeover of the Balkans. Recently, we drove Islamist terrorists, who threaten Europe as much as America, from their training bases in Afghanistan. Is it too much to ask to protect our 250,000 troops defending freedom abroad, along with aid workers and journalists, from a treaty enabling publicity-hungry prosecutors to harass them?

Myth 2: (flip side of first myth) We're interventionist bullies, with no regard for the sovereignty of countries whose threatening leaders are better dealt with diplomatically.

Reality: Saddam Hussein has been jerking around the United Nations for seven years, ignoring his surrender agreement and buying off French and Russian defenders while building a nuclear and germ-warfare capability for delivery by North Korean missiles or, more likely, through terrorist cutouts. Sanctions, dumb and smart, have dismally failed; the danger of nuclear blackmail grows to head-in-the-sand Parisians and Berliners as well as vulnerable New Yorkers. Brits and Turks may reluctantly help us, but European handwringers and Arab monarchs want a free ride.

Myth 3: The Bush administration, with its disdain for treaties, does not understand the nuances of dealing with nuclear-armed Russia, which must never be allowed to feel humiliated.

Reality: Lo and behold, when the U.S. withdrew as promised from the outdated ABM treaty, the clear skies did not fall. Contrary to all European fears and dire predictions, Vladimir Putin was induced to put the best face on the inevitability of a U.S. missile defense against rogue nations and terrorists. In return for this (and, mistakenly, for being allowed to get away with secret sales of nuclear know-how to Iran), Russia is allowing us to give it $10 billion or more to safely reduce its unneeded nuclear stockpile. No humiliation; only relief all around.

Myth 4: Europe holds the high moral ground in providing aid to the Palestinian "resistance," while Bush, in thrall to the Jewish lobby, refuses to force Israel to abandon its "occupation."

Reality: America has broken free of the decade-long romance with a terrorist and is now trying a radical new idea of encouraging Palestinians to set up the first democratic Arab state. Yasir Arafat may be elected its president to attend formal ceremonies with Israel's president whatsisname, but power would rest in a parliament with parties that would elect a prime minister. This chief executive, strengthened by an independent judiciary and free press, would extract the "painful compromises" that Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has said Israel is prepared to make after the terror war ends. This would demolish —

Myth 5: America is in the clutches of hard-line, hard-nosed, bellicose warrior-executives, while Europe is the continent of highminded peace-seekers.

Reality: America is the place seized with an intelligently moralistic, Wilsonian vision of peace with its necessary component of freedom. Because the old "realism" has failed in the Middle East, does it not make sense to impose some idealism on the players? With new leaders freely elected in the West Bank and Gaza, and with a federal government created after the deposal of the dictatorship in Iraq, the Arab world would have its chance to catch up with the rest of the world. The leap into the present might fail while daring greatly, but the treadmill of more despotism leads nowhere.

Myth 6: The political popularity of Colin Powell will enable State Department worldliness to triumph over the Bush-Rumsfeld-Cheney cowboy mentality, enabling Europe's multilateral impotence to harness American superpower.

Reality: Colin's a good soldier and political loyalist. If he were tempted to threaten, Haig-like, to quit, he knows that Bush has Condi Rice waiting in the wings. Powell will lose a few, win on occasion, but will stick around through the next election. Rectifying a decade-old strategic error and bringing Europe along to remake the world is too much fun.

Felch is offline Felch
Prince
Germantown, Maryland
Sep 2001
time: 00:20
  Old Post 08-07-2002 10:35
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How long until this is labeled a troll?

Nice post, but it's just us Yankees getting to third base solo, if you know what I mean.

Apocalypse is offline Apocalypse
King
Lexington, VA: College - Houston, TX: Home
Aug 2005
time: 00:20
  Old Post 08-07-2002 10:36
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Saddam Hussein should never have become our enemy. We handled the prewar Iraq/Kuwait relations all wrong. We really should have just paid Iraq's war debts.

Bereta_Eder is offline Bereta_Eder
Prince

Oct 2000
time: 07:20
  Old Post 08-07-2002 10:38 Visit Bereta_Eder's homepage!
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pardon my inquisitiveness but why are the words debts and impotence underlined?

is it a new forum feature?

will read the post later.

Merci.

Felch is offline Felch
Prince
Germantown, Maryland
Sep 2001
time: 00:20
  Old Post 08-07-2002 10:39
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Nonsense, we should have just killed him. If he couldn't be found, we should have captured and tortured his family members until we got bored.

What's the point in being a globetrotting empire if you're not going to use your powers for evil?

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
King
Macedonia
May 2001
time: 00:20
  Old Post 08-07-2002 13:03 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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So far as I can see, those are just a bunch of unbacked assertions. Them being in an article you found does nothing to prove them. The only mildly interesting point of discussion is the last one, since it deals with an argument about political realities and thus isn't as overly broad in scope as the other ones...

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
King
Macedonia
May 2001
time: 00:20
  Old Post 08-07-2002 13:05 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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Amricans are fairly masturbatory in their praise of themselves, aren't they, now...

And every time there's an article written by a Euro that says nice things about Americans it seems to end up being posted here numerous times. I really wonder how a psychologist would dissect that pathology...

Bereta_Eder is offline Bereta_Eder
Prince

Oct 2000
time: 07:20
  Old Post 08-07-2002 13:11 Visit Bereta_Eder's homepage!
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Re: Myths of US Foreign Policy Suffering from ads?

Reality: In the past decade, the U.S. saved Europe from becoming an economic vassal to Iraq, which was on its way to conquering Kuwait and Saudi Arabia.

ZONG! Sorry. Thanks for trying.

A few years later, as Europe temporized, we led NATO's defeat of Serbia's takeover of the Balkans.

ZONG! Sorry Thanks for trying (and allow me to laught my ass off at the knowledge of this guy's reality)

Recently, we drove Islamist terrorists, who threaten Europe as much as America, from their training bases in Afghanistan.

ZONG! Great Satan is the one who interfered with them.

Not that Europe has any sort of immunity of course.

Is it too much to ask to protect our 250,000 troops defending freedom abroad, along with aid workers and journalists, from a treaty enabling publicity-hungry prosecutors to harass them?

It is too much to ask to be above the law yes.



Reality: America is the place seized with an intelligently moralistic, Wilsonian vision of peace with its necessary component of freedom.

ZONG! Realpolitik dressed up in a wilsonian attire. Even my dog knows that (if I had a dog)

Sandman is offline Sandman
Prince
Sinister Penguin
Aug 2001
time: 05:20
  Old Post 08-07-2002 15:39
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I thought that this was satire when I first read it. How can anyone take such bilge seriously?

Victor Galis is offline Victor Galis
Emperor
in exile
Jul 1999
time: 00:20
  Old Post 08-07-2002 16:11 Visit Victor Galis's homepage!
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The article had some mildly good points, but then you sit and think about them for a second, and realize, oh wait... no, he's wrong.

Too pro-American.

Roland is offline Roland
Emperor
Auf'm Jahrmarkt :(
May 1999
time: 06:20
  Old Post 08-07-2002 16:23
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Safire is hilarious. Excellent command of language, poor command of facts.

Btw, what's this american obsession with dissing europe ? If The US were only half as great as Safire claims, why bother about what we say or think?

MarkG is offline MarkG
Grand Lord of Apolyton, Owner of all this land as far as the eye can see

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Macedonia, Greece
Jan 1970
time: 07:20
  Old Post 08-07-2002 16:24 Visit MarkG<br><img src=/forums/images/admin-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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quote:
publicity-hungry prosecutors
Keneth Starr will be on the ICC???

Roland is offline Roland
Emperor
Auf'm Jahrmarkt :(
May 1999
time: 06:20
  Old Post 08-07-2002 16:31
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The best one is this:

"A few years later, as Europe temporized, we led NATO's defeat of Serbia's takeover of the Balkans."

Now that takeover would have been a remarkable comeback for the serbian/yugoslav army after getting their ass whooped by Slovenia's militia.

Victor Galis is offline Victor Galis
Emperor
in exile
Jul 1999
time: 00:20
  Old Post 08-07-2002 16:40 Visit Victor Galis's homepage!
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Hehe... the Serbians were busy enough taking over part of their own country, let alone a significant part of the Balkans.

The Mad Monk is offline The Mad Monk
Emperor
of Ice Cream
Mar 2000
time: 23:20
  Old Post 08-07-2002 18:08
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I didn't agree with what we were going to do in the Balkans, because it wasn't worth our sodliers' lives. I didn't agree with it later, because I learned that a lot of propaganda was going down, and we had no businees there at all. I don't agree with it now because I've learned the history, how they stood against the Ottomans so Europe wouldn't fall, and against Hitler so the world wouldn't fall, how they had our backs all those years, and how we turned on them, and I am ashamed.

Roland is offline Roland
Emperor
Auf'm Jahrmarkt :(
May 1999
time: 06:20
  Old Post 08-07-2002 18:14
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"how they stood against the Ottomans so Europe wouldn't fall"

[nationalist mode]
They got overrun. We stopped the Turks. And you all should be thaaaaaankful. Without us you'd all be speaking turkish now. Where's that gratitude ? Bring it on!
[/nationalist mode]

rah is offline rah
Apolyton Prince of Moderators, Master of Reason
Lord of the Ferrets
Jan 1970
time: 23:20
  Old Post 08-07-2002 18:16
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A lot of Safire's writing in the past that I have read were pure hilarious satire. No reason to believe he wasn't attempting the same thing here.

RAH

SlowwHand is offline SlowwHand
King
of The Cooler
Sep 1999
time: 23:20
Thumbs down  Old Post 08-07-2002 18:23 Visit SlowwHand's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Apocalypse
Saddam Hussein should never have become our enemy. We handled the prewar Iraq/Kuwait relations all wrong. We really should have just paid Iraq's war debts.


Is it drink or drugs, or a wild combination, that make you write this?
Yeah. Let's just pay everybody's bills some more.

MarkG is offline MarkG
Grand Lord of Apolyton, Owner of all this land as far as the eye can see

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Macedonia, Greece
Jan 1970
time: 07:20
  Old Post 08-07-2002 18:23 Visit MarkG<br><img src=/forums/images/admin-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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Ronald, you stopped the Turks? Huh! 2000 years before that we stopped the Persians!!!
Now where's your gratitude?!?

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:20
  Old Post 08-07-2002 18:25
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quote:
Originally posted by MarkG
Huh! 2000 years before that we stopped the Persians!!!
Now where's your gratitude?!?


That was the Spartans, not the Macedonians.

Roland is offline Roland
Emperor
Auf'm Jahrmarkt :(
May 1999
time: 06:20
  Old Post 08-07-2002 18:28
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"Ronald, you stopped the Turks? Huh! 2000 years before that we stopped the Persians!!!"

I didn't know the Slavic tribes stopped the Persians. When and how ?

Carver is offline Carver
Prince
reprocessing plutonium, Yongbyon, NK
Jan 2002
time: 23:20
  Old Post 08-07-2002 18:38
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quote:
Saddam Hussein has been jerking around the United Nations for seven years.


Reality: The United Nations (read US & UK) has been jerking around Iraq for a decade. Economic sactions, no-fly zones, sporadic bombing.

If U3 (US/UK/UN) wants to force its inspectors into Iraq and dismantle Hussein's "weapons of mass destruction" they should go into Israel and force the Israelis to dismantle their weapons. And they should have gone into apartheid South Africa and forced them to do the same thing. But no, nukes in the hands of racist oppressors are fine but Saddam - he might threaten the price of oil, OMG.

Last edited by Carver on 08-07-2002 at 18:47

Saint Marcus is offline Saint Marcus
King
Scio Me Nihil Scire
Jan 1970
time: 06:20
  Old Post 08-07-2002 18:43 Visit Saint Marcus's homepage!
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2/10

bad troll

In the past decade, the U.S. saved Europe from becoming an economic vassal to Iraq, which was on its way to conquering Kuwait and Saudi Arabia.

For some reason, the authors seemed to have "forgotten" that Europe gets most of it's oil from within Europe, or the former USSR.

Recently, we drove Islamist terrorists, who threaten Europe as much as America, from their training bases in Afghanistan.

Europe, besides Britain, isn't a prime target for Al Qaida. Most European countries aren't even secondary targets.


very poor troll. but then again, I expected no better from the New York Times

Saint Marcus is offline Saint Marcus
King
Scio Me Nihil Scire
Jan 1970
time: 06:20
  Old Post 08-07-2002 18:45 Visit Saint Marcus's homepage!
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quote:
America has broken free of the decade-long romance with a terrorist and is now trying a radical new idea of encouraging Palestinians to set up the first democratic Arab state.


The first democratic arab state? As I recall, north african nations are considered arab as well, and some are democracies.

SlowwHand is offline SlowwHand
King
of The Cooler
Sep 1999
time: 23:20
  Old Post 08-07-2002 18:48 Visit SlowwHand's homepage!
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Iraq will probaly go Democracy, once Saddass and his brood are smoked.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:20
  Old Post 08-07-2002 18:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Saint Marcus
The first democratic arab state?


In the Middle East.

MarkG is offline MarkG
Grand Lord of Apolyton, Owner of all this land as far as the eye can see

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Macedonia, Greece
Jan 1970
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Dino, Roland,

see my new sig. it'll help you

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:20
Question  Old Post 08-07-2002 18:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Saint Marcus
In the past decade, the U.S. saved Europe from becoming an economic vassal to Iraq, which was on its way to conquering Kuwait and Saudi Arabia.

For some reason, the authors seemed to have "forgotten" that Europe gets most of it's oil from within Europe, or the former USSR.


According to the stats I've seen, approximatly 40% of the EU's oil imports comes from the Middle East. Around 39% of thier imports come from European and Russian sources. Where do you get your stats from?

Roland is offline Roland
Emperor
Auf'm Jahrmarkt :(
May 1999
time: 06:20
  Old Post 08-07-2002 18:59
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That doesn't answer the question.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:20
  Old Post 08-07-2002 19:01
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quote:
Originally posted by MarkG
see my new sig. it'll help you


It's not my fault that you are leaching off the past glories of your Spartan betters.

 
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