09-07-2002 09:17									#31
	Full PM-box? Change here!

no biggy

	09-07-2002 10:49									#32
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Wow, I never realized I was so oppressed. I guess I deserve the easier time in life I get being a man, the higher salaries, no one cutting me off in mid-sentence, no one patronizing me, people taking my opinion seriously, etc.

You must know some pretty meek women che. Most of the ones that I know don't tolerate it and in fact are often the ones that do all those things that you described. Not because they are women, but because of their personality. Women aren't owed anything and neither are men.

	09-07-2002 11:16									#33
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Comeon, I really think all these attacks on blackice are unfair. Yes, blackice definitely has societal injustices agaisnt men as his "big issue" on Apolyton. But can anybody here provide any quote from blackice saying he hates women in general? Heck, he just said on another thread:

"To lump one sex or the other like this is simply wrong.

Each sex is made up of people all different and all with their own unique personality. Some are good some are bad. "

All blackice can be said to be "Guilty" of is havign a fixation on one particular topic, but that could be said of lots of posters(for instance, Sten Sture and economics threads). If the topic blackice is posting about doesn't interest you, dont read it- simple!


"Wow, I never realized I was so oppressed. I guess I deserve the easier time in life I get being a man, the higher salaries, no one cutting me off in mid-sentence, no one patronizing me, people taking my opinion seriously, etc."

I don't think anyone will question there aren't serious problems women face in society, but just because women often have a hard time of it doesn't mean it is ok when men fight an injustice. In fact, it is perhaps more important to call attention to these "men's issues" because many aren't aware there are any problems.

One thing though blackice, for a better example of the double standard you are talking about it'd be bettle to look at the Yates trial. She murdered 5 of her children, but got alot of sympathy because she suffered Post-Partum depression. Afterwards, alot of blame got shifted to the husband and there were alot of people who wanted to prosecute him.

	09-07-2002 12:38									#34
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi One thing though blackice, for a better example of the double standard you are talking about it'd be bettle to look at the Yates trial. She murdered 5 of her children, but got alot of sympathy because she suffered Post-Partum depression. Afterwards, alot of blame got shifted to the husband and there were alot of people who wanted to prosecute him.

Was the Yates case really a double standard? If it had been a man with a long history of mental illness, would public sympathy have been any different?

As far as the Barton stuff, it sounds like the common defence tactic of let's find someone or something to blame, rather than "When in trouble, blame a man."

This is the problem with Blackice's posts. He often raises valid points, but then he always goes to the extreme of saying "ah hah, another example of how women are trying to screw men again. The system is stacked against men."

He's cried wolf far too many times.

	09-07-2002 20:10									#35
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

"Was the Yates case really a double standard? If it had been a man with a long history of mental illness, would public sympathy have been any different?"

Maybe it would, but I'd really doubt their would be calls to prosecute the wife......

"This is the problem with Blackice's posts. He often raises valid points, but then he always goes to the extreme of saying "ah hah, another example of how women are trying to screw men again. The system is stacked against men." "

Blackice has provided examples of ways women try to screw men before, though I am sure he would also admit women face a multitude of problems. If the topic he raises doesn't interest you, you don't have to respond to it. If you disagree with his conclusions on something, then feel free to argue them.

	09-07-2002 21:21									#36
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: He's cried wolf far too many times.

Examples of that would be?

Yates yes we covered that one too

A balance would be nice yes both sexes deserve equality period. Now all you have to do Tak is look up funding based on gender to see inequality.

As with any social change of this magnatude there is always an imbalance. It takes awareness and action to get equality, just ask a woman activist.

A good example of this would be schooling. After the great push by womens groups to keep all girls schools and ban all boys schools. The powers at be now see this as a huge error. Boys education is going down hill, schools are geared towards the female though process and boys are falling behind. Social change is nice and needed sometimes but it must be thought out not just acted on because someone screems the loudest.

Men's rights have been stomped on big time especially where their children are concerned. This is all I am saying and trying to bring some awareness to the issue. I have many other interests with one basic theme injustice.

As far as "ah hah another example" "of Injustice" is a better way of putting it. Each and every post has been just that with the basic theme being an injustice towards men yes.

quote: "ah hah, another example of how women are trying to screw men again. The system is stacked against men."

In these areas I have posted they are you have yet to provide any information to counter this fact.

quote: Was the Yates case really a double standard? If it had been a man with a long history of mental illness, would public sympathy have been any different?

Yes and further they would not go after the wife because she drove him to it with her extreme monthly mood changes...

Shi Huangdi It is clear you see what I post for what it is. thanks for your understanding

	09-07-2002 22:08									#37
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Read the article? I fell off my chair howling in laughter when I read this part.

"In reality, the evidence is greater that Terry, not John, was emotionally abusive. Terry put the lives of thousands of people at risk, and then attempted to frame an innocent man for it, knowing that he could go to prison as a result. "

Glenn Sacks' other columns...

"Have Anti-Father Family Court Policies Led to a Men's Marriage Strike?
Philadelphia Inquirer (7/5/02)
NewsMax.com (7/5/02)
World Net Daily (7/6/02)



Colorado Arsonist Terry Barton's Smart Strategy--When in Trouble, Blame a Man
iFeminists.com (7/2/02)
Cybercast News Service (7/3/02)



Why Are There so Many Women in the Fathers' Movement?
Minneapolis Star-Tribune (6/21/02)



American Fathers Get a Bad Rap
Cybercast News Service (6/17/02)



Kuehl's Marriage License Bill Ignores Male Victims of Domestic Violence
Los Angeles Daily Journal (6/13/02)
San Francisco Daily Journal (6/13/02)



Kitaen Plays the 'Woman's Trump Card' Against Finley in Custody Battle
Cybercast News Service (5/28/02)
Santa Clarita Signal (5/26/02)



Stay-at-Home Dads: A Practical Solution to the Career Woman's Dilemma
Newsday (5/22/02)
Philadelphia Inquirer (5/29/02)
Louisville Courier-Journal (5/29/02)
Minneapolis Star-Tribune (5/31/02)



California Child Support Bill Will Help Newly Released Prisoners Rebuild Their Lives
Los Angeles Daily Journal (5/9/02)
San Francisco Daily Journal (5/9/02)



Is There a Batterer in the US Senate?
World Net Daily (5/8/02)
Cybercast News Service (5/7/02)



Let's not 'Learn' the Same Lessons From Blake That We Learned From OJ
Cybercast News Service (4/30/02)
Santa Clarita Signal (5/1/02)



Dowd on Women and the 'Baby Bust': It's All Men's Fault
Cybercast News Service (4/18/02)
Men's News Daily (4/17/02)



Boys: The New Underclass in American Schools
Los Angeles Daily Journal (4/15/02)
San Francisco Daily Journal (4/15/02)



New Survey Confirms Men Do Fair Share of Household Work
Pasadena Star-News & Affiliated Papers (4/7/02)



Hate My Father? No Ma'am!
World Net Daily (4/8/02)
She Thinks (4/6/02)
Cybercast News Service (4/8/02)



Confronting Woman-Bashing In the Men's Movement
iFeminists.com (4/2/02)



New Study Finds Myths, Misrepresentations in Women's Studies Textbooks
Cybercast News Service (4/1/02)
MensNewsDaily.com (4/1/02)



California Paternity Justice Act: If the Genes Don't Fit, You Must Acquit
Los Angeles Daily News (3/15/02)



In Defense of a Flawed but Decent Russell Yates
Houston Chronicle (3/11/02)



The US Case Against John Walker Lindh: Distinctly Underwhelming
Washington Free Press (3/02)



Tennessee Shared Parenting Bill Could Help Children, Reduce Divorce
Memphis Commercial Appeal (2/28/02)



Shouldn't Men Have a Choice, Too?
Los Angeles Daily Journal (2/18/02)
San Francisco Daily Journal (2/18/02)



Should Men Still be Expected to Pay for Dates?
St. Louis Post-Dispatch (2/14/02)


Eve Ensler's V-Day: For Women, Afghanistan is Everywhere
Cybercast News Service (2/12/02)
Santa Clarita Signal (2/22/02)



In Defense of John Walker's Parents
Los Angeles Times (2/2/02)



California Mother's Triple Murders Show Cost of Ignoring Female Abusers
Dallas Libertarian Post (2/4/02)
iFeminists.com (1/24/02)



Jordan vs. Jordan: In Defense of Michael Jordan
iFeminist.com (1/24/02)
Santa Clarita Signal (2/1/02)



Almost John Walker
Washington Times (1/25/02)



Distraught Father's Courthouse Suicide Highlights America's Male Suicide Epidemic
San Diego Union-Tribune (1/11/02)
Pasadena Star-News & Affiliated Papers (1/31/02)



The Price of Fatherhood--a Father's Reply to Ann Crittenden's ‘Mothers Manifesto'
Los Angeles Daily Journal (1/10/02)
San Francisco Daily Journal (1/10/02)



Men's ‘Silent Health Crisis' Cries Out for Men's Health Act
Los Angeles Daily Journal (12/18/01)
San Francisco Daily Journal (12/18/01)
Pasadena Star-News & Affiliated Papers (1/10/02)



In Defense of John Walker
San Francisco Chronicle (12/9/01)
Philadelphia Inquirer (12/9/01)



The Teachers' ‘Code of Silence'
Los Angeles Daily News (12/2/01)
Biloxi Sun-Herald (12/4/01)
Front Page Magazine (12/4/01)



The Hero Without a Country
Daily Bruin (11/21/01)



Popular Women's Studies 101 Textbook: Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics
Cybercast News Service (11/7/02)


California Men's College Sports Under Assault from NOW
Los Angeles Daily Journal (10/29/01)
San Francisco Daily Journal (10/29/01)



Prisoners in Their Own Homes: Male Victims of Elder Abuse
Santa Clarita Signal (10/29/01)



Horowitz's 'Letter to Anti-War Demonstrators' Is Poor History Lesson
Daily Bruin (10/23/01)



Domestic Violence: A Two-Way Street
Los Angeles Daily Journal (10/15/01)
San Francisco Daily Journal (10/15/01)



4 Feminist Myths about Domestic Violence
Daily Bruin (10/12/01)



Why I Miss the Cold War
Los Angeles Daily Journal (10/2/01)
San Francisco Daily Journal (10/2/01)
Pasadena Star-News & Affiliated Papers (10/11/01)



U.S. Policy Has Betrayed Afghan Women for 20 Years
Daily Bruin (9/28/01)



Attacks on American Muslims Reaffirm Wisdom of 2nd Amendment
Pasadena Star-News & Affiliated Papers (9/19/01)



All Americans Need to Stand Up for U.S. Arabs, Muslims
Pasadena Star-News & Affiliated Papers (9/16/01)



Title IX Lawsuits are Endangering Men's College Sports
Los Angeles Daily News (9/7/01)
Pasadena Star-News & Affiliated Papers (10/18/01)



Russia's Free-Market Revolution at 10: An Unmitigated Disaster
Los Angeles Daily Journal (8/27/01)
San Francisco Daily Journal (8/27/01)



Nowhere to Go: Why Does LA County Refuse to Help Male Victims of Domestic Violence?
Los Angeles Daily News (8/21/01)
Pasadena Star-News & Affiliated Papers (8/23/01)



Bush Could Usher in Hydrogen Age as Kennedy Did Space Age
Santa Barbara News-Press (8/12/01)
Los Angeles Daily Journal (8/13/01)
San Francisco Daily Journal (8/13/01)
Sacramento Business Journal (8/24/01)



Misandry and Modern American Jewish Culture: Why I Didn’t Marry a Jewish Woman
Intermountain Jewish News (Denver) (7/20/01)



Female Murderers Seen in a Different Light: Society Prefers to View Violent Women as Victims
Pasadena Star-News & Affiliated Papers (7/5/01)



How to Bring Back Our Fathers
Chicago Tribune (6/17/01)
Salt Lake City Tribune (6/17/01)
Los Angeles Daily News (6/17/01)



Father Care: The Other Child Care Option
W. New York Family Magazine (6/01)



Why I'm no Longer a Teacher
Los Angeles Daily News (5/27/01)
Pasadena Star-News & Affiliated Papers (5/31/01)



Is Pay a Function of Gender Bias?
Los Angeles Times (5/12/01)



Controversial IWF Ad is Accurate, Exposes Anti-Male Distortions
Daily Bruin (5/21/01)



Both Men and Women Do the Work of the World
Daily Bruin (4/4/01)



Male-Female Wage Gap Largely Reflects Male Sacrifice, not "Discrimination"
Daily Bruin (5/28/99)



Government, Charities Shortchange Men on Medical Research
Daily Bruin (5/17/99)



Some Males Lead Society, Most Work Hard, Die Early
Daily Bruin (1/25/99)"

Forgive if I read these with a spot of skepticism. I can't say I expect unbiased reporting.

	10-07-2002 05:39									#38
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

"If you read them" is the key here chances are you will not. You dismiss this as if you know all there is to know.

quote: "In reality, the evidence is greater that Terry, not John, was emotionally abusive. Terry put the lives of thousands of people at risk, and then attempted to frame an innocent man for it, knowing that he could go to prison as a result. "

I find nothing funny about that comment at all. Maybe you could enlighten us with what you found so funny about this Ron?

Most of these articles are extremely news worthy and unbias. You should take some time to read about the issues before you dismiss them simply because it destroys your illusions.

Tomorrows stories include NOW, heard of them Ron? Dna testing is another know the problem there RON?

My guess is no you don't, my guess is you do not want to know. My last comment is why do people post in threads they have no interest about? Seems like a complete waste of time to me. Do you not have some love muffin to impress?

	10-07-2002 06:00									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

An example of NOW's power most men here scoff at this type of comment. Bruce (Tammy) was the head of the California chapter of NOW ( National Organization for Women). Here is a tidbit of the power RON:

quote: During the Simpson trial, she wrote to Judge Lance Ito and complained that he was treating prosecutor Marcia Clark with less courtesy than he was lavishingýon the male attorneys. At Ito's invitation, Bruce and a fellow NOW leader went to the judge's chambers for a private, off-the-record meeting. Afterward, Ito seemed to treat the female prosecutor with greater respect. "Although that event did not have an impact on the trial's eventual outcome," Bruce writes, "it's an example of a kind of activism that can and must be engaged in." It's also the kind of activism that, had Simpson been convicted, might well have triggered a reversal. Judges aren't supposed to meet with partisans in the middle of a trial, even partisans seeking nothing more than courtroom courtesy.

Ten bucks says most of you had no idea this leftist's feminist group had this type of power...Wait till you see what I post tomorrow

	10-07-2002 06:12									#40
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Good for them, I like strong women.

	10-07-2002 10:23									#41
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by blackice I find nothing funny about that comment at all. Maybe you could enlighten us with what you found so funny about this Ron?

I think he was trying to put the funny part in context by quting the end of the extract. The amusing section is the examples of 'other work' by the author which paints a picture of.... um.... let's just say a definite trend...

	10-07-2002 12:16									#42
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by blackice An example of NOW's power most men here scoff at this type of comment. Bruce (Tammy) was the head of the California chapter of NOW ( National Organization for Women). Here is a tidbit of the power RON: quote: During the Simpson trial, she wrote to Judge Lance Ito and complained that he was treating prosecutor Marcia Clark with less courtesy than he was lavishingýon the male attorneys. At Ito's invitation, Bruce and a fellow NOW leader went to the judge's chambers for a private, off-the-record meeting. Afterward, Ito seemed to treat the female prosecutor with greater respect. Judges aren't supposed to meet with partisans in the middle of a trial, even partisans seeking nothing more than courtroom courtesy. Ten bucks says most of you had no idea this leftist's feminist group had this type of power...Wait till you see what I post tomorrow

This is a prime example of crying wolf. Blackice talks about the power of "leftist feminist groups," but what actually happened here is pure conjecture.

Note that there is no proof that Ito changed his style. There are no facts to indicate what was said in the meeting (Ito may very well have told them to piss off or face a contempt charge).

Yet, Blackice jumps to the conclusion that NOW has some type of power.

	10-07-2002 18:03									#43
	Got spare money?

Actually Tak it is well documented that in fact he did change his tone with her after the meeting. Tak the real point you missed is he met with this group read the lines again. What other group or person has this kind of influence? List them for us ok? It was also in the news at the time.

Speaking of crying wolf...you would do better at this subject if you knew something about it. That is something I have proven time and time again you don't know a thing about any of this. Your stance has been to try and discredit the messenger without facts and or substance. I guess I win ten bucks from you anyway...

	10-07-2002 18:07									#44
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: The amusing section is the examples of 'other work' by the author which paints a picture of.... um.... let's just say a definite trend...

I still see nothing amusing about it? The author reports on injustice in a certain area why is that amusing? Do we find reporters writting about war as their focus amusing? What about hunger in africa several reporters do that exclusively is that amusing too?

	11-07-2002 00:15									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by blackice quote: "In reality, the evidence is greater that Terry, not John, was emotionally abusive. Terry put the lives of thousands of people at risk, and then attempted to frame an innocent man for it, knowing that he could go to prison as a result. " I find nothing funny about that comment at all. Maybe you could enlighten us with what you found so funny about this Ron?

Sure thing.

What's John going to go to prison for, exactly? Allegedly writing a nasty letter? All evidence of which has been totally destroyed? Man, that's a strict law.

Or is it due to allegedly being emotionally abusive? Alleged by someone. Presumably. From that, someone else has alleged that possibly this might mean he's violent. It's not said who is actually alleging this, so I'll assume it's Brenda who milks the goats. Is Brenda's word law? Or is this just a load of panicky gossip parading as the word of law in the global conspiracy against evil men.

You see, there are holes in this exercise of dressing editorial up as fact that even a woman driver could reverse a truck through. It also chooses to ignore the fact that John's probably going to get the house and kids now. Assuming, of course, that he wants them, being the good man that he is. I'd put money on that one, seeing as there's a good chance Ms Zippo is going to do time.

It's rubbish, blackice. That's why I laughed at it.

	11-07-2002 04:06									#46
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Your thinking is quite shallow (rubbish).

John is an excuse (scapegoat) (reason for her actions) it is in the news, everywhere.

John is being deemed the man who abused this woman to crime.

John put up the house for the bond of 600,000. John has held the household and watched the kids. John has paid the bills seen to the daily duties of the house and kids. John at least with action loves his wife and kids.

You need to think more.

Last edited by blackice on 11-07-2002 at 07:06

	11-07-2002 04:14									#47
	Remove this text

quote: John is being investigated it is in the news, everywhere. John is being deemed the man who abused this woman to crime.

Care to provide a link to back this up (to a news source, not a columnist with an axe to grind bigger than what Paul Bunyan carried)? As I said awhile back, I haven't seen anything like this in the news.

	11-07-2002 07:05									#48
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Rex Little Care to provide a link to back this up (to a news source, not a columnist with an axe to grind bigger than what Paul Bunyan carried)? As I said awhile back, I haven't seen anything like this in the news.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/dr...1221653,00.html

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/dr...1238579,00.html

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/dr...1221677,00.html

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/dr...1221530,00.html

My error it should have read "excuse" not "investigated". The line has been edited.

Right from the onset she blamed a man in a mini van then her husband's letter made her do it. According to her family it was a love letter. The point is why bring her husband into it? What is all the talk about abuse? An excuse as the writter apply puts it. An all to common one these days...

Axe to grind?

	11-07-2002 07:26									#49
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by blackice My error it should have read "excuse" not "investigated". The line has been edited. Right from the onset she blamed a man in a mini van then her husband's letter made her do it. According to her family it was a love letter. The point is why bring her husband into it? What is all the talk about abuse? An excuse as the writter apply puts it. An all to common one these days... Axe to grind?

At first I thought you might have a point. Several of the reports describe the husband as a drunk and abusive. Was this true or is it just the friends of the woman making these claims.

But the last link is a story that quotes the guy's father who says his son is abusive and an alcoholic. The guy was also convicted of drunk driving.

Is this relevant? Yes. People want to know why a forestry worker started a fire. We try to look for causes. This is of particular interest when the person has so many supporters.

Is the husband responsible for the woman's actions or to blame? No.

Does the behaviour of the husband help explain the woman's actions? Maybe.

If the woman had an alcoholic mother, would the story be covered the same way? Yes.

And there you have the crux of the situation. This is not about blaming a man just because he's a man, this is about trying to someone else to blame.

	11-07-2002 07:38									#50
	Suffering from ads?

And he is the husband...The man your point again? She did not blame her sister, mother or the person she claimed abused her as a child which would explain all. ( Common cry)

She blamed her husband a man...He did drink yes, was he abusive towards her? I don't know you? The point is it is all to common to blame the man...

She did it according to her what ever reason she had she did it.

Why blame the man? Sympathy, lighter sentence, public outcry, status quo. You call it all of it has happened so far. I'll wait for sentencing to continue this, justice I wait to see.

	11-07-2002 21:51									#51
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

No, I'm serious blackice. What's he going to go to prison for? Is it an offence to bear testicles in your neighbourhood?

It's called a "sob story", incidentally, and just about all criminals who know they're going to get found guilty do it. Even ones who don't have ovaries. I still don't see an evil conspiracy.

Or is it shallow to question news stories? If it is, I'm practically transparent. Still, better to be see-through than thick....

	11-07-2002 22:09									#52
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by blackice Why blame the man? Sympathy, lighter sentence, public outcry, status quo. You call it all of it has happened so far. I'll wait for sentencing to continue this, justice I wait to see.

Oh come on. Criminals routinely try to blame someone: the husband, the wife, the parents, the teachers, society, and even the victim (she was asking for it).

	12-07-2002 02:42									#53
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

All good and well now back your claims show me one news article, case etc where the wife was blamed for a crime. Good luck.

the husband: All too common and the reason for the article. You have to live in a closet not to see this.

the wife: Provide even one link to this I will buy you a beer.

the parents: Yes on the rare occassion a bad upbringing or abuse comes up, 9 times out of ten the woman claims this defence not the man. Excuses on top of that the abusive person was the father.

the teachers: heh possibly I have never heard it you if so provide the link.

society: reaching for straws name one and provide the link.

and even the victim (she was asking for it): All to common in rape and assualt cases agreed. Mind you this is as old as the hills because for the last 15 years this does not wash in a court of law anymore. Laws have been written now to protect the victem from this type of defence. Nice try but old news.

Do not delude yourselves do some reseach it is obvious you have no idea.

	12-07-2002 12:04									#54
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by blackice All good and well now back your claims show me one news article, case etc where the wife was blamed for a crime. Good luck. Do not delude yourselves do some reseach it is obvious you have no idea.

Rose West

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serials/west/main.htm

Myra Hindley

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial4.../moorsindex.htm

Charlene Gallego

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial6/gallego/

Elizabeth Bathory

http://www.xs4all.nl/~kvenjb/madmon...rzsebet_bio.htm


There's 4. Not all women acting alone, but certainly cases where the woman is blamed for a murder or murders.

Anyway, back to my question again. What's he going to be imprisoned for?

	12-07-2002 12:12									#55
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

While I'm waiting, here are some more cases. I know you only asked for one, but why waste a good thing?


Mary Bell

http://www.crimelibrary.com/classics/bell/

Madame Lalaurie

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorio...women_killers2/

Mary Ann Cotton

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial10/cotton/

	12-07-2002 20:09									#56
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

They are so what you are saying is in these cases the wife was blamed for the crime? Even thought the man did it? Where?

For instance in your first story

quote: To protect Rose, Fred claimed responsibility for the murders himself

and

quote: As the case developed, Rose abandoned Fred to save herself. She tried to position herself as the victim of a murderous man, but she was not particularly convincing. Police worked continuously to tie her in to the crimes. The bodies of Rena, Anna McFall and Charmaine were found as Fred continued to cooperate with the police. On the Mary Bastholm case, Fred decided to quit cooperating and her body was not found. At their joint hearing, Fred attempted to console Rose, but she avoided his touch. She told the police he made her sick. The great partnership in crime was over.

In fact this story fits what I am saying to a tee to free herself Rose "claimed" to be the victim of Fred.

I will not bother with the rest obviously you do not understand what is being said here.

	12-07-2002 21:09									#57
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Rose may have claimed to be the Sugar Plum Fairy, but the fact remains that she's serving a life sentence with no chance of parole. You see, she may have come up with a sob story, but society, the media, the jury and the Judge didn't buy it.

As will probably prove to be the case with the fires. I understood perfectly, blackice.

	13-07-2002 07:14									#58
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Actually there was great debates about it in the public and media. It was not until she took the stand that she hung herself. If you read the stories about this one you will see that is the case.

As for the fire we will wait and see. The jail terms handed out so far for others has been quite harsh. In her case they say it should be the harshest yet, we will wait and see.

Bottom line as with many others the man was blamed bottom line.

	13-07-2002 07:22									#59
	Inflate your Upload Space

Another day.... this same thread....

	13-07-2002 07:28									#60
	Support Apolyton

Like so many more out there have you posted thre same thing in all of them?