10-07-2002 01:47									#31
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http://kuhttp.cc.ukans.edu/kansas/c...la/342/ch2.html

Very long (scroll down to the section on the Russian-Polish war) but some very good stuff.

Andy: from that link

quote: However, the Bolsheviks rejected the Curzon Line, saying they were willing to offer the Poles much more land if they accepted other Soviet terms. The real reason for this rejection was quite different. Russian documents published for the first time in 1992 show that the Bolshevik leaders rejected the Curzon Line and carried on the war against Poland because they believed they had already won the war against the Entente Powers. Therefore, as Lenin put it, they wanted to "taste with bayonets whether the Socialist revolution of the proletariat had not ripened in Poland." Furthermore, they believed that the whole Versailles settlement would collapse with the fall of Poland, and hoped that revolutions would likely break out in Germany and Italy. (10)

	10-07-2002 01:51									#32
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well, I thought you meant it as in Germany as an aggressive power, as in the Nazis... you didn't post a year either, so... had you said "possible revolutionary Germans", iut would have been clearer.

it's true though, who knows how Europe would have ended if there had been a successful revolution in Germany at that time or maybe also political action from the executive powers that would have been in favour of the communists rather than the nazis. but that's unlikely, Hindenburg was a damned reactionary, so a civil war would have been it... and that one was more than possible in the late 20s.

	10-07-2002 01:59									#33
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Cockney, your link shows that Poland attacked Russia first.

	10-07-2002 02:01									#34
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that's irrelevant, chegitz

chegitz, would you be up to a discussion of possibilities of Germany turning out leftist by the 30s?

	10-07-2002 02:01									#35
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It also explains why though doesn't it

	10-07-2002 02:03									#36
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C0ckney, I wrote a longer reply to your post... you were short on detail, so.. .

	10-07-2002 02:06									#37
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quote: Originally posted by bogi Hitler started the war because Poland accepted the jews and didnt persecute them. Poland had the largest Jewish Population in europe and they lived there for 600years peacefully. You never see any jews mentioning that do you ?

When we were eventually betrayed and slaughtered, would you expect us to?

	10-07-2002 02:09									#38
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quote: The whole point of the Winter War against FInalnd was to get some breathing room around Leningrad.

The whole point of the Winter War against Finland was to conquer Finland to become a puppet state/Soviet republic.

	10-07-2002 02:12									#39
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My last post was addressed to che.

Had there been a communist revolution in Germany , I think the western powers might have interveined and crushed it. I could see a civil war, especially as the "Freikorps" (sp?) (who crushed the attempt in 1919) liked communism as much as snowmen do sunshine

	10-07-2002 02:31									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Stefu The whole point of the Winter War against Finland was to conquer Finland to become a puppet state/Soviet republic.

Considering that they eventually won the war and that you didn't become a Soviet puppet, I don't think that's it. Stalin originally tried to lease the areas from Finland, but was rebuffed.

Cockney, the article seems to lay the fault of the war on Pilsudski, who wanted to recreate greater Poland.

The part about Lenin trying to export the Revolution to Poland is true. Once Poland started the war, Lenin felt they should try and conquer it and spread the Revolution. It's entirely lilely that had Warsaw fallen and Poland become socialist, there would have been a successful German Revolution. The causes of Stalinism would have been abolished long before he could have taken over, and we'd live in a true communist world today. So, I'll forgive the adventurism on Lenin's part once the Poles had been rebuffed.

	10-07-2002 02:32									#41
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As for the invention of Western powers in a German revolution, I think it unlikely. They had fought four long hard years of war already, not including the fighting in Russia. The crowds at home were in no mood for a renewed war. More likely they would have faced revolutions of their own.

	10-07-2002 02:36									#42
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after all they didn't intervene when warmongers came into power

	10-07-2002 02:40									#43
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True, but your warmongers were seen as a bulwark against Bolshevism. ANy crime can be tolerated as long as the criminal is anti-communist.

	10-07-2002 02:56									#44
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quote: Considering that they eventually won the war and that you didn't become a Soviet puppet, I don't think that's it. Stalin originally tried to lease the areas from Finland, but was rebuffed.

Soviet victory wasn't a real victory in sense Stalin wanted. Since no real progress was being made and Western powers threatened to intervene in Finland's side, Stalin had to be satisfied in less than he had planned for.

Considering that secret articles of Molotov-Ribbentrop had specified Finland to be part of Soviet sphere, considering that Estonia, Latvonia and Lithuania had suffered occupation after giving in to Soviet demands, considering the elaborate marching plans Soviets had for conquest of entire Finland, considering Terijoki puppet government that Soviets treated as official one and which was planned to take the control of Finland after the conquest, I very much believe that yes, that was exactly it.

As for Stalin's lease attempt, that was probably just Stalin's attempt to bully Finland into more favorable attack position. The leased areas would have crippled Finnish defense. They included strategically important islands in Baltic sea, city of Hanko which was very near Helsinki and, IIRC, parts of Mannerheim line.

Marching guides to Finland. Orders for troops not to stop until the Swedish border. Puppet government. Artillery shots Soviets fired to their own villages and blamed Finns for used as a pretext for war. Let's face it, Winter War was nothing but naked Soviet aggression.

	10-07-2002 05:21									#45
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First of all, I mentioned this case ages ago.
Secondly, it is a reknown fact that there were even 10x less victims then Gross says. You can read it in official texts.
After all, how many people can be forced into one small
farm building? President of Poland apologised not recently but I guess it was over a year ago and he admitted Polish
participance though it was yet not sure.
Monument is old.
It is also reknown that a similar case happended in one or two nearby villages, probably by the same men.
Nothing new. And nothing special.
Poles were killing Poles during this war too, for money
and not only. Jews were killing and humilating Poles under temporary Soviet occupation too. That's the war. Once again I emphasise that Poland was the only country in Europe in which no party wanted to cooperate with Hitler. Once again I say that there was even British army in construction to operate with Nazis, but no Polish. Etc.
Thoughts that Stalin annexed eastern Poland and baltic states to gain land to oppose Hitler on, it is rubbish.
If Poland and Baltic states wouldn't have been destroyed,
Hitler wouldn't be able to attack USSR... And if Stalin
wanted to attack Germany, he didn't want to do it because he was so good, but because he was returning to the thoughts of rules over the world.


"Ecthelion, the non-German purpetrators of Jewish progroms in ocuppied Ukraine weren't Uncle Joe's forces, but rather anti-communist Ukrainian paramilitaries allied with the Nazis."

Is anti-semitism the only bad thing You can do for You?
Ethnical clear-outs on occupied territories (Poles...)
and other stuff...

"FG, alliance is a strong word. (...) they were only taking back what Poland had stolen from them in the war of 1920-21 (Poland attacked the USSR and won)."

Poland was the one to start military action, but only after our secret services gave information about Smole?sk council, on which plans of invading Poland were discussed.
Don't deny. At this time, doctrine of "communism in one state" wasn't yet defined and USSR obvious goal was to "support socialism" where it could. Otherwise, why Soviet gouverment of Poland was formed?
Poland wasn't intervenient. Otherwise, it would have taken its chance to overthrow communism. It didn't.

" The Soviets did committ attrocities there, including the muder of some 10,000+ Polish officers."

Only recently admitting it... And 10000 (though I know
bigger numbers" is more I guess than 100-300 Jews
killed by some greedy peasants.
Note, not only officers were murdered, but all that had
any influence in the society. From veterinaries to reknown
actors. The same did nazis.

"Interestingly, as the Red Army marched across Poalnd, the the people in the areas they conqured rose up against their landlords and bosses, seizing the land and factories. The Red Army was welcomed as liberators, although that view of them soon changed."

Massacres in Grodno of course prooves that.
Poles were ordered not to fight, and anyway, people
weren't aware of what Soviets were to do. My grandma says that when Soviets entered her city, the mayor came out with salt and bred to greet them, as peopel thought they want to help us against the Germans...
Poland was offered many times to fight side by side with fuehrer against SU. It didn't like the idea, was happy with
what it had, and it got Soviet push in the back in return.
Of course, Jews, Ukrainians etc welcomed USSR warmly, but soon most got to know it is worse for them.

"Poland's acceptance of the Jews ended with the 3rd Partition of Poland. When Poland was recreated at the end of WWI, it was hardly the center of European enlightenment it had once been. It quickly became a ferocius dicatorship under Pilsudski, attacked its neighbor the USSR to grab land, and treated its Jews as second class citizens."

I discussed the reasons of disapproval of Polish nationalists to the Jews. Note that they weren't organising pogroms, but boycotts and stuff (though
leader of American Jews told Dmowski that he'd rather
him do a quick pogrom than long boycott )
Again, a quick explenation; some years after the partages
during which jews supported Poland, jews started getting into German/Austrian politics in Austria and Germany.
That was considered a national betrayal and in fact it was.
When it comes to the Russian part, Russia limited Jewish
colonistation area to formerly Polish lands, and so, thousands of Russian Jews called "Litwacy" came to Poland. They didn't speak polish and had no association with Poland and I guess that may have caused antypathy to them. Anyway, it was the time that gentry was loosing
its importance while citizens of the cities, economical enemies of Jews (gentry liked Jews more than urban Poles
as Jews had no political aspiratons that may have worried them) got stronger. Also, Germans and Russians taught us anti-semitism.

"During the occupation, the Poles gleefully participated in the persecution of the Jews, turning them over to the Nazis,"

Some did that -for life or for money- as everywhere. There were Jews turning over their fellowmen too.

"murdering them themselves,"

Two-three villages with who knows 300 people compared to three millions of Jews and 6 mlns of Jews killed by Germans... Are You nuts? Not minding that many jews
thought of themselves as Poles and were Poles,
and that Poles were slaughtered by Germans too.

"working at the death camps,"

Ekhem? The staff were Germans, and self-administration or whatever i can call it in English were mostly Jews...

"stealing Jewish property."

If a Pole was murdered, his property was robbed too...
You don't know anything about conditions in Poland during the war...
Anyway You are so happy that poor Byelorussians were killing and robbing their richer Polish neighbours and I guess You consider that "historical justice". Why don't You consider robbing rich jews by poor Poles/Byelorussians/Ukrainians/all nations a historical justioce too? Think of it as a sign of revolution too.

"Even when they did help the Jews, they did so in such a way as to tqake advantage of them, gouging them for food and taking bribes not to turn them in. "

Some for sure, and I think it's exagerrated. After all, it WAS damn hard for food during the war, and -as someone mentioned here- Poland was the only place where there was death penalty by Germans for hiding Jews, and "the rightfull amongst the people" or how it is in English, they are mostly Poles...

"If they had not done so, he would not have moved West at all."

Doubt that. Time would come for Alsace and Lorraigne.

"The Poles are also considered widely anti-semitic nowadays. You wouldn't find any Pole admitting to mistakes of his people though, they're the biggest nationalists there are in Europe"

Wrong. Personally I believe that the Turks are most nationalistic. Russians are very nationalistic too. Germans
also. Frenchmen too. Ukrainians aren't better. Hungarians - look at mr Jeszenka. Czechs are astonishingly self-centered too...

"In other words, Poland (be)"

USSR offered Poland much more land, but Poland resigned of it "in the name of good relationships" (but also to not
have more than 1/3 of minorities), and paid for it when
USSR started their campaign of "reuniting Byelorussia"
forgetting that Byelorussians had hardly any thought of themselves and that they could give them back Smole?sk at first. What suprises me if that guevara defends USSR.
IT WAS NOT a communistic state. Perhaps they claimed to be, perhaps they at the start tried to be, but they weren't."

"C0ckney, in the war where the Poles were in Belarus and the Ukraine, the Soviets didn't do anything as a stepping stone for the Germans. You're mixing up the years 1920 and 1939"

Cockney is right. As one said; "the way to the world revolution goes through the dead body of Poland"

"Chegitz, by the way I'm not sure if You are aware that
Pilsudzki wasn't nationalist. He was socialist, and his plans towards eastern lands were quite different than it
finally was decided. he wanted to return to multinational conception of I Republic. But incorporation tendencion
won. I see nothing strange in it. Notice; Lithuania wanted their historical lands, with Wilno/Vilnius, though it was
5% Lithuanian, and USSR accepted their right to it. It didn't accept Polish rights to its eastern provinces though they were much more Polish, as it probably wanted to get Ukrainian/Lithuanian support. It was also obvious that it'll
rather support more important for it Germany than Poland
when it comes to its western borders. Poland had to fight.
How USSR treated Poles can be seen in simple comparison; until Stalin got to power, there were 351
Polish school in EASTERN Byelorussia itself. Today, in entire Byelorussia there is one Polish school, built recently
for Polish money."

	10-07-2002 05:24									#46
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"When we were eventually betrayed and slaughtered, would you expect us to?"

BY GERMANS
My God. As if Hitler was a Pole and all killed citizens of Poland were jews.

	10-07-2002 05:27									#47
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And stop this dumb discussions. I have better things to do than clearing your minds of the trash, chegitz.

	10-07-2002 06:00									#48
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One of the great ironies of history is that many European Jews including concentration camp survivors came to Australia as refugees to start a new life. On the same boats were war criminals from all over Eastern Europe who came here to do exactly same thing.

I know many people whose Eastern European parents or grand parents probably murdered Jews and certainly mutter darkly about how Hitler was right and are very proud of their service in his army.

	10-07-2002 08:31									#49
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Bismarck after defeating the French put down a revolution there, so there would be a precedent for the French putting down a German revolution. Note that in Germany there were plenty of reactionaries who spent time commie hunting, and the French army of this time was the best in the world. I think the French would be able to crush any communist revolution in Germany.

	10-07-2002 08:47									#50
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Heresson,

The camp guards in East Poland, Czechoslovakia and other eastern places were heavily staffed by locals, not Germans. The Germans administered the camps, certainly, but they got the locals to do a lot og their dirty work. Ukrainians and Slovak were used particularly as guards. Recall that "Ivan the Terrible" was a slav. I'm not trying to excuse German actions, but it is reprehensible to deny the complicity of all people in the crimes of the Holocaust who participated, POLES included. We can also point a finger at the French, too, in this case. It is delusional to suggest otherwise.

	10-07-2002 08:48									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi and the French army of this time was the best in the world. I think the French would be able to crush any communist revolution in Germany.

Best in the world? After WWI? I dunno about that. I don't think you can say this about the French army at any point post-1815... Source?

	10-07-2002 09:04									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson If Poland and Baltic states wouldn't have been destroyed, Hitler wouldn't be able to attack USSR...

Firstly, no one DESTROYED Baltic states and secondly, you perfectly realize that this is bs. If Stalin don’t occupy western Poland, then Hitler occupy ENTIRE Poland and it changed nothing. In this case Germany still have common frontier with SU and possibility to attack SU.

quote: Poland was the one to start military action, but only after our secret services gave information about Smole?sk council, on which plans of invading Poland were discussed.

Oh, you’ve returned to your favorite conception: “we know that will be attacked sooner or later, so we better strike first.” Excellent. No matter what your secret services known, it doesn’t changes the fact that Poland started this war, not Russia.

quote: Poland wasn't intervenient. Otherwise, it would have taken its chance to overthrow communism. It didn't.

What, overthrow of communism is the major motive for intervention? You wanted to capture a part of territory of foreign country and launched a war, send an army. If this is not an intervention, that I don’t know what it is.

quote: What surprises me if that guevara defends USSR.

He did not defend the USSR, he defend the historical truth. I am agreed with his opinion 100%.

quote: How USSR treated Poles can be seen in simple comparison; until Stalin got to power, there were 351 Polish school in EASTERN Byelorussia itself. Today, in entire Byelorussia there is one Polish school, built recently for Polish money.

Sorry Heresson, but this is pure bullsh!t.

You are talking about BYELORUSSIA, not POLAND. Why in small Byelorussia should be more the 300 Polish schools? It’s sovereign country. The official languages of Byelorussia are Byelorussian and Russian, not Polish language. And finally, if you think that today (or during times when Byelorussia was part of Soviet Union) in Byelorussia should be 351 polish schools (like in old good times of Russian Empire), answer how many Byelorussian schools now in Poland or was in Poland in times of SU?
Just please, don’t start again your favorite song that Eastern Byelorussia always was very close tied with Poland, etc. Just face it. Byelorussians and Russians are brothers. Russian is official language of Byelorussia, not Polish. We live in united country with Byelorussia not you are, sure the institutes of this united country currently on formation stage, but many things were already done for integration. Soon we’ll have one currency with Byelorussia and then we’ll integrate in one country again.

	10-07-2002 09:08									#53
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*sniff* I smell a long-running ethnic conflict that I wish to stay out of... *backs slowly out of room*

	10-07-2002 09:11									#54
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Don’t worry. It’s just a little showdowns, but we always end it peacefully with Heresson.

	10-07-2002 11:29									#55
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My God, here is Serb again. Another long post shall it be...
Se You next time I'll be in the net...

	10-07-2002 15:41									#56
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Shi is correct here. The French army was the best in the world up until the late 1930s in equipment, and their doctrine wasn't bad until the Germans developed their mass armor techniques. If one were to look at the troops and equipment alone, the Germans should have been beaten in 1940, as they were outnumbered in tanks and aircraft with a decisive qualitative edge to the French in tanks. Of course the Germans never fought the entire French Army at once, but broke it into parts and defeated it piecemeal.

	10-07-2002 16:54									#57
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I guess the Poles were mad that submarine didn't pan out... you know... the one with the screen door?

	10-07-2002 17:15									#58
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"One of the great ironies of history is that many European Jews including concentration camp survivors came to Australia as refugees to start a new life. On the same boats were war criminals from all over Eastern Europe who came here to do exactly same thing.
I know many people whose Eastern European parents or grand parents probably murdered Jews and certainly mutter darkly about how Hitler was right and are very proud of their service in his army."

I know. These are Latvians (parades of SSmans), Ukrainians (Bandera...), Russians (Wlasow)...
and surely a bit Poles, but very very very very little.

"The camp guards in East Poland, Czechoslovakia and other eastern places were heavily staffed by locals, not Germans. The Germans administered the camps, certainly, but they got the locals to do a lot og their dirty work. Ukrainians and Slovak were used particularly as guards. Recall that "Ivan the Terrible" was a slav. I'm not trying to excuse German actions, but it is reprehensible to deny the complicity of all people in the crimes of the Holocaust who participated, POLES included. We can also point a finger at the French, too, in this case. It is delusional to suggest otherwise."

Oh I'm not saying that some Poles participated. Jews participated too. In fact,
some time ago I got to know that one Jew that worked in conc. camp lives in my city.

"Firstly, no one DESTROYED Baltic states and secondly, you perfectly realize that this is bs. If Stalin don?t occupy western Poland, then Hitler occupy ENTIRE Poland and it changed nothing. In this case Germany still have common frontier with SU and possibility to attack SU."

Hitler wouldn't have attacked if He didn't have Moscow's approval (Ribbentrop-Mo?otow...)
SU could have helped Poland in their fight against Germans. It didn't. It also declared
that it's in eastern Poland to protect Byelorussians and Ukrainians, caring not for Poles
giving as a snap for Hiler, and Poles in the east were being systematically either sent
to Kazakhstan or deep Russia, or murdered. And SU wasn't national state and it's aim wasn't to care
about nations of its own, was it.

"Oh, you?ve returned to your favorite conception: ?we know that will be attacked sooner or later, so we better strike first.? Excellent. No matter what your secret services known, it doesn?t changes the fact that Poland started this war, not Russia."

Soviet Union started the war. For SU of that time, any peace treaty with any capitalistic state was temporary.
And note; when we were loosing, we agreed on backing off to the injust Curzon line, but You didn't accept that.

"What, overthrow of communism is the major motive for intervention? You wanted to capture a part of territory of foreign country and launched a war, send an army. If this is not an intervention, that I don?t know what it is."

It is fight for independance. Not only ours. Pilsudzki fought for independant Ukraine too.

"He did not defend the USSR, he defend the historical truth. I am agreed with his opinion 100%"

Anyone that names himself after communistic guru can't be objective in that matter.


"You are talking about BYELORUSSIA, not POLAND. Why in small Byelorussia should be more the 300 Polish schools? It?s sovereign country. The official languages of Byelorussia are Byelorussian and Russian, not Polish language.

Soviet Union isn't a federation of nations. That would be nationalistic. Poles got a number of schools smaller than Jews
and not much bigger than Russians at the start.

And finally, if you think that today (or during times when Byelorussia was part of Soviet Union) in Byelorussia should be 351 polish schools (like in old good times of Russian Empire),

Russian empire persecuted Poles and didn't accept their presence in Lithuania or Byeloruthenia,
claiming that these are "polonised Byelorussians/Lithuanians" or just catholic Byelorussians
that speak Polish language and mistakenly declare Polish nationality (which was corrected
by administration). Poles were -unlike Byelorussians - much more often educated and well-organised.
It is funny in fact. Under tzarate, though it didn't admit there are any Poles in Byelorussia,
Poles f.e. were majority of representatives of Mi?sk gubern, though they were wuite small
minority there (7 Poles on 10 people there I think). but SU did what tzarate wasn't able to do through
all those years; get rid of Poles and rusificate Byeloruthenians.

answer how many Byelorussian schools now in Poland or was in Poland in times of SU? Just please, don?t start again your favorite song that Eastern Byelorussia always was very close tied with Poland, etc. Just face it. Byelorussians and Russians are brothers.

Byelorussians and Poles are.
Russians are our big old bad ugly naughty cousin that molests us both.

Russian is official language of Byelorussia, not Polish.

NOW. And anyway, why should it be? At those times there were much
more Poles in Byelorussia and Polish was more spreaded than Russian there.
Russian is official language of Byelorussia now, as result of uniformisation
(rusification) actions by SU.

We live in united country with Byelorussia not you are,

I know... ZBIR... he he he

sure the institutes of this united country currently on formation stage, but many things were already done for integration. Soon we?ll have one currency with Byelorussia and then we?ll integrate in one country again."

You know the same well as I do that the way of destroying Byelorussia goes through
gate of union with Russia. In Poland, Byeloruthenian language is alive, while in Byelorussia,
it is dieing because of long rusification process that ?ukaszenka, though he should, isn't trying
to stop. He'd rather make his country a province of Russia (and union between R and B must
end up in this. It's like a marriage bewteen a snake and a frog), in order to become important
Russian politician. Poland tried to be nice to Byelorussia -it ended up in ?ukaszenko pointing
out Poles of Grodno as National Enemies. ?ukaszenka is a dictator and You, Russia know it,
but it doesn't make You change your politics.

oh, it took me some time to find it. In 1934, there were 321 Polish schools. Just I'm not quite sure in only
in Byeloruthenia or in all USSR. It says that in Byeloruthenia, but in previous years (1931) there were 166 of them.
However, it says that there were 301 jewish schools then, perhaps some of them used Polish language
(those numkbers are in fact interesting there was even estonian school there).
All Polish schools were closed in 1937 and Polish autonomies were deleted.
There weren't many Byelorussian schools in western Byeloruthenia, but taht comes out of one thing I said about before;
Byeloruthenians had no sense of their nationality and their language was not used as literature language.
Literature language of Byelorussians of that time was still Polish. There were some 22 Byelorussian schools
in Poland. Byelorussian language was persecuted first as dialect of Polish one, later as a separate
language by Russians who wanted to make Byeloruthenians Russians (and Byeloruthenian Poles Byeloruthenians)
and Russians are to blame for the pathethic state of Byelorussian culture in those times.
Under the tzarate and (except the time until Stalin) SU, Russians, clearing out Polish influence
that's grown during the past centuries (peacefully) replaced it with influence of their own.
Some 25% of Byelorussians speak their nationla language now. And in Smole?sk area that
once was Byelorussian, only 3%. Poles had even action of declaring byelorussian language in order
to strenghten it up against Russian, but ?ukaszenka is on a good way of destroying his nation.

The source for numbers ; P.Eberhardt, "National developments in Byeloruthenia" (or whatever)
Oh, in fact the ones to blame for activising Byelorythenians are Germans, they wanted
druing the Iww to make trouble both to Poles and Byeloruthenians...

But I must admit one thing, that SU treated Poles alright - at the start. Eberhardt wrote that wehn Byelorussian
republic didn't want to accept decision of creating Polish autonomy in one city, Moscow accused it of continuing
old tzarish anti-Polish politics and forced good for Poles sollution. But Somehow when Soviet attitude changed,
in another city Polish ratio dropped from 80% to 26% in one day...

	10-07-2002 18:37									#59
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If you want to buy a good car, go to Germany. If you want to buy YOUR car, go to Poland.

	10-07-2002 20:14									#60
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