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Ned
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of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:20
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In 1941, 40 Poles herded the Jews of Jedwabne into a barn and set it on fire. An estimated 1600 died. No Nazi's were involved. However, a monument commemorating the slaughter blames only the Nazi's and makes no mention of Polish involvement.
The President of Poland recently apologized to the Jews, but continued to blame the Nazi’s.
The continued denial of Polish responsibility for crimes against humanity must be utterly condemned!
quote:
Jul 9, 11:48 AM (ET)
By ANDRZEJ STYLINSKI
BIALYSTOK, Poland (AP) - A Polish prosecutor said the government was ending its investigation into the part Poles played in a World War II massacre of Jews under Nazi occupation and that no charges would be filed.
"We plan to drop the investigation as no perpetrators were found other than those already convicted," said prosecutor Radoslaw Ignatiew. Twelve people were convicted by a communist-era court in 1949 for assisting Germans in the murder.
"We did not manage to gather sufficient evidence that would allow for the identification of or pressing of charges against any living perpetrators," Ignatiew added.
Officials from Poland's Institute of National Remembrance confirmed, however, that Poles were involved in the 1941 slaughter of Jews in the northeastern village of Jedwabne.
Hundreds of Jews were believed to have been beaten to death or burned alive in a barn in the village. The role played by Polish citizens was suppressed for nearly six decades until publication of a book by a Polish emigre historian, Jan Tomasz Gross. He claimed 1,600 Jews were murdered. After release of the book in 2000, the Polish government launched an investigation.
"The role of the Poles was decisive in conducting the criminal act," Ignatiew said.
The book, "Neighbors," sparked national soul-searching among Poles, many of whom could not believe that anybody but the Nazis would have committed the atrocity.
During a three-hour presentation Tuesday, prosecutors detailed their findings, including a summary of witness accounts along with forensic dating of the bullets and bones exhumed from two mass graves in the village last year.
The institute questioned 98 witnesses, who gave conflicting accounts of what happened. Despite accounts that claimed the Nazis forced the Poles to commit the crimes at gunpoint, the Institute found 40 Polish men escorted Jews to the barn and set it on fire.
The role of Germans at that point was not clear, although it probably was either small or nonexistent, said Ignatiew, because the Germans didn't have large units of police or troops stationed in the village.
Ignatiew said it was not possible to determine how many Jews had been killed, but he believed earlier estimates of 1,600 were an exaggeration. He said he based his belief partial exhumations of mass graves which were not completed because of Jewish objections to desecration.
For decades a monument in Jedwabne blamed World War II Nazi occupiers for rounding up as many as 1,600 Jews and burning them alive in a barn on the edge of town on July 10, 1941.
The inscription on a new monument erected last year before the 60th anniversary on the massacre still angers many because it fails to state explicitly that Poles took part in the killing.
President Aleksander Kwasniewski begged Jewish forgiveness for the killings during a 60th anniversary commemoration on July 10, 2001, but he insisted Nazi occupiers were behind the bloodshed and the nation bore no collective guilt.
The Jedwabne massacre took place after invading Nazi troops supplanted the previous Soviet occupiers. Some historians have suggested the Poles acted out of revenge for what they saw as Jewish cooperation with the Soviets.
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Ecthy
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Zhonghuà Rénmín Gònghéguó
Mar 2000
time: 06:20
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Engel has been convicted, Ned. HE just doesn't go to jail because he's too old.
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Ecthy
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Zhonghuà Rénmín Gònghéguó
Mar 2000
time: 06:20
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World war ends in disaster, Nazis blamed.
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germanos
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behind a firm ****, Rotterdam, NL
Apr 2002
time: 06:20
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Like it or not,those Jews were Poles too...
edit:as a matter of fact, poland sufferd the loss of almost 7 million of its inhabitants, of which 3 million Jews
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bogi
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quote:
Originally posted by germanos
Like it or not,those Jews were Poles too...
edit:as a matter of fact, poland sufferd the loss of almost 7 million of its inhabitants, of which 3 million Jews |
Thats not what the Jews say.
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germanos
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behind a firm ****, Rotterdam, NL
Apr 2002
time: 06:20
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I think it is not irrelevent. It makes you think of what to group people in.
to bogi: yes, and this is something to think about...
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bogi
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Hitler started the war because Poland accepted the jews and didnt persecute them. Poland had the largest Jewish Population in europe and they lived there for 600years peacefully. You never see any jews mentioning that do you ?
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:20
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quote:
Originally posted by faded glory
Just a side note. On the history channel . . . |
Don't you mean the Hitler Channel?  All Hitler, all the time. Serious, these guys are like the Reader's Digest of history.
There is substantial evidence to believe that Stalin was not only fooled by the Nazis, but that he though he was fooling the Nazis. Stalin expected a war . . . it's just that he expected to start it. The Soviets ahd been expanding military production and building and equipping their armed forces. My understanding is that he planned to attack Nazi Germany in '44 or '45. Come to think of it, he was right on schedual.
Ecthelion, the non-German purpetrators of Jewish progroms in ocuppied Ukraine weren't Uncle Joe's forces, but rather anti-communist Ukrainian paramilitaries allied with the Nazis. Stalin's anti-Semitism didn't manifest itself until the late '40s, when he had a falling out with Golda Mier (apparently she snubbed him).
FG, alliance is a strong word. They had an agreement not to attack each other, and an agreement to partition Poland. As far as the USSR was concerned, they were only taking back what Poland had stolen from them in the war of 1920-21 (Poland attacked the USSR and won). The Soviets did committ attrocities there, including the muder of some 10,000+ Polish officers. Interestingly, as the Red Army marched across Poalnd, the the people in the areas they conqured rose up against their landlords and bosses, seizing the land and factories. The Red Army was welcomed as liberators, although that view of them soon changed.
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:20
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quote:
Originally posted by bogi
Hitler started the war because Poland accepted the jews and didnt persecute them. Poland had the largest Jewish Population in europe and they lived there for 600years peacefully. You never see any jews mentioning that do you ? |
Poland's acceptance of the Jews ended with the 3rd Partition of Poland. When Poland was recreated at the end of WWI, it was hardly the center of European enlightenment it had once been. It quickly became a ferocius dicatorship under Pilsudski, attacked its neighbor the USSR to grab land, and treated its Jews as second class citizens.
During the occupation, the Poles gleefully participated in the persecution of the Jews, turning them over to the Nazis, murdering them themselves, working at the death camps, stealing Jewish property. Even when they did help the Jews, they did so in such a way as to tqake advantage of them, gouging them for food and taking bribes not to turn them in.
After the war, when a scant 60,000 of the original three million Jews were left and tried to return home, they were met with violence and pogroms. Only 9,000 Jews remained in Poland for the longest time, though I undertand there's about 25,000 Jews in Poland now.
Yes, Poland was so nice to the Jews. 
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germanos
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behind a firm ****, Rotterdam, NL
Apr 2002
time: 06:20
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Bogi: Hitler wanted 'Lebensraum' for his 'ubermenschen'. He wanted to move East fromthe start. The fact that France and Britain would not let him advance there was the reason for the War in western Europe. If they had not done so, he would not have moved West at all.
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faded glory
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This trash talking 2 bit dope dealer is about to learn respect for the law
Jan 2001
time: 05:20
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Don't you mean the Hitler Channel? All Hitler, all the time. Serious, these guys are like the Reader's Digest of history.
There is substantial evidence to believe that Stalin was not only fooled by the Nazis, but that he though he was fooling the Nazis. Stalin expected a war . . . it's just that he expected to start it. The Soviets ahd been expanding military production and building and equipping their armed forces. My understanding is that he planned to attack Nazi Germany in '44 or '45. Come to think of it, he was right on schedual.
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Well I like the history channel. Yes it seems to be an Outpost for Hitler loving types. But its got some pretty damn good documentrys. Like the one on the faalklands and Korean war.
Stalin may have believed this. But positioning of his troops Pre-War suggested otherwise. There was about 2/3 of the Soviet army facing Europe. Most were in the same positions they had been in 1939. This never changed, and nothing was really done in anticipation of a Nazi attack. And the fact remains, Stalin didnt believe the germans had attacked him until 3 days into Barbarossa. Instead he killed 4 of his advisors, who he thought was lieing to him.
So, history speaks for itself in some ways. My guess would be Stalin had no idea, or chose to not believe impending warning of a German buildup. And, he wrote in his personal. That he thought Hitler,Japan and him would take over the world and destroy the west once and for all.
So 4 weeks before barbarossa, the german ambassador wrote a letter saying it was 'ok' to annex the rest of finland and push into Sweden. However, Stalin never acted, or was preparing to act on this. Looking back in hindsight, this looked like a ploy to get troops away from the European borders.
quote:
FG, alliance is a strong word. They had an agreement not to attack each other, and an agreement to partition Poland. As far as the USSR was concerned, they were only taking back what Poland had stolen from them in the war of 1920-21 (Poland attacked the USSR and won). The Soviets did committ attrocities there, including the muder of some 10,000+ Polish officers. Interestingly, as the Red Army marched across Poalnd, the the people in the areas they conqured rose up against their landlords and bosses, seizing the land and factories. . |
Yes but think about it. Baltic states fall, Eatern poland annexed, Finland attacked. Looks like the Russians were working in steppe with the Germans. That probably was the case. Im not saying it was wrong, Im saying it looks like stalin bought the whole non-aggression bit.
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The Red Army was welcomed as liberators, although that view of them soon changed |
The Irony of this is. When the Germans entered Ukraine, White Russia, and the baltics. There were alot of people cheering the german soldiers as liberators. This was not the case a few years later. But still, the fact remains.
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:20
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quote:
Originally posted by C0ckney
I think you'll find the red army tried to capture Warsaw, as a steping stone to Germany and got its bottom smacked. The Poles then counter-attacked and captured Wilno, Lwow and Minsk. After trying to attack Kiev, they were driven back towards Warsaw, the Soviets attacked and were defeated badly. The war ended in 1921 and the Soviets were forced to give up territory. |
Yes, the USSR did almost take Warsaw, after driving the Poles out from the initial invasion. If Stalin hadn't disobeyed orders and tried to go for his own glory, the Soviets might have been able to smash the invaders. As it was, Stalin's treachery allowed the Poles to concentrate first on one army and then Stalin's. The USSR surrendered to Poland after this and gave up the territory that they would later reoccupy in 1939. Poland started the war, no the USSR. The USSR was already fighting 13 other coutrnies and six White Armies. They weren't looking for yet another enemy.
In other words, Poland 
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bogi
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Poland's acceptance of the Jews ended with the 3rd Partition of Poland. When Poland was recreated at the end of WWI, it was hardly the center of European enlightenment it had once been. It quickly became a ferocius dicatorship under Pilsudski, attacked its neighbor the USSR to grab land, and treated its Jews as second class citizens.
During the occupation, the Poles gleefully participated in the persecution of the Jews, turning them over to the Nazis, murdering them themselves, working at the death camps, stealing Jewish property. Even when they did help the Jews, they did so in such a way as to tqake advantage of them, gouging them for food and taking bribes not to turn them in.
After the war, when a scant 60,000 of the original three million Jews were left and tried to return home, they were met with violence and pogroms. Only 9,000 Jews remained in Poland for the longest time, though I undertand there's about 25,000 Jews in Poland now.
Yes, Poland was so nice to the Jews. |
Name any other country that treated the jews fairly ?? For over 600 years jews lived in Poland and prospered just look at the Kazimeriz District in Krakow.No country in the world gave the jews that much freedom except Poland.
Pilsudski didnt like the UltraOrthadox Jews because they were a burdenaccording to him. So some bad things happend during that time but name anyother country with a huge jewsih population that treated the jews any better during that time.
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:20
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bogi, how Jews were treated by the Kingdom of Poland/Grand Duchy of Lithuania is really irrelevent. How you treated them under the Russian Empire and in the 20th Century are important.
However, to directly answer your point, in fact, most course on Jewish history do point out the tolerance of Poland-Lithunania. During that period, it was not merely the most religious tolerant country in Europe (except possibly for the Ottomans) it was also the center of European learning and culture.
One other country in Western Europe treated the Jews well and that was Ireland. However, there were never that many Jews there, and under the English occupation, Jews were oppressed along side the Irish. In other countries, this usually resulted in the locals turning on the Jews. In Ireland, common oppression resulted in the Jews being seen as brothers.
But that was then, this is now. The golden age of Poland was over two-hundred years ago and shows no sign of returning.
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09-07-2002 21:55
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