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Heresson
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of frogs
Jun 2000
time: 06:20
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"Why you are so sure?
Destruction of Bolshevicks and occupation of Russia were his goals from the beggining.
Perhaps He was just aware that Stalin wishes to invade him (and the rest of Europe)
And even if so, SU prooved by this pact that it will assist Hitler in taking Poland,
and made him sure that SU won't help Poland. So, SU made Hitler's invasion much much
more likely.
"Why SU should help to former enemy (Poland) who captured a part of its territory in its
war against new enemy (Germany)?"
Because SU as a communitstic state should be fair, and if not help the victim of attack,
it shouldn't help the attacker. You could say; Poland was doomed, so we just wanted
to keep Hitler the farer the better from our borders"
But then think about that if not the pact signed, probably Hitler wouldn't risk invasion
of Poland wand war with the West, and that by partaging Poland, You brought Hitler
closer to your borders, and got rid of ally against it.
You could say You wanted to take care of Byelorussians and Ukrainians. Then;
why You occupied also clearly Polish areas? And why did Wilno/Vilnius take your interest?
After all Lithuanians weren't one of the nations of your state.
And anyway, again by that You'd proove that USSR wasn't communistic.
" May be I didn't understand something but, first you said- "It also declared that it's in eastern Poland to protect Byelorussians and Ukrainians", it means that SU did care about nations of its own, then you said-"SU wasn't national state and it's aim wasn't to care about nations of its own, was it.". Explain please what do you really mean. "
USSR was primarly communistic state and though organised by national republics, as not-national
state, it didn't have any right to speak as a representation of any of "its" nations.
In another words; "SU's nations" are Byelorussians and Ukrainians in SU, but not Byeloruthenians
and Ukrainians in another countries. Soviet Union, as a communistic state, should care about all
the humanity, not only nations that lived in majority within its borders.
Imagine old Poland treating itself as representation of all Jews around the
war or Polish Jews as their representations, only because it had the world's largest Jewish
population. It couldn't do that, as the aim of Polish state was either to represent
its own citizens, no matter the nationality, or the interests of Poles.
So, SU's aim was either to care about its own citizens, or all communists around the world,
or all humanity.
" No. Poland started it. SU was aready under attack of another 13 foreign countries and have
a civil war. Only a madman will start another war in this situation."
I agree! I know Russians... he he eh
Anyway, SU needed the war with Poland and Petlura until Poland and Ukraine would grow in power.
We were in similar situation as USSR. And Ukraine too. Our souvereignity wasn't accepted,
our borders weren't accepted, we were surrounded by enemies. As You treat us as intervening force,
we could treat You.
"If this is fight for independance (wich is really unlikely, becouse you were already independant from Russia, independant before the war), then fight this war on your territory. You sended your army into territory of another country, which means that this is an intervention. "
That's the problem. You -theoretically- accepted independance of Poland, but only on a small
part of our territory. If You had a chance, You'd take from us even Che?m and Bia?ystok.
We didn't send army on your territory. We were fighting on territory that was ours
(why Soviet right to it was bigger than ours? The borders weren't settled, so talking
about territory of one or another country isn't rational), and the territory of allied
with us independant Ukraine, that was attacked by You (and finally destroyed)
You wanted us in the shapes of Congress Kingdom I guess.
" Blah, you are protray this as Byelorussia were under Poland control before SU, or something like this. In fact both Poland and Beylorussia were parts of Russian Empire and Byelorussia was part of RE since very, very long time.
Byelorussia and Poland - Russian anexions:
1667- (Andruszów cease-fire after Russian attack on Poland)
Smole?sk, but You claim it isn't Byelorussia. And today truely, it isn't.
1772- (I partage of Poland) - Witebsk, Po?ock (NE Byelorussia + SE Latvia)
1793- (II partage of Poland) - Mi?sk (C Byelorussia+ CW Ukraine)
1795- (III partage of Poland) - Grodno (W Byelorussia+ E,N Lithuania+ S Latvia + NW Ukraine)
1807- (Napoleon...) - Bia?ystok (NE Poland), small parts of Byelorussia.
1815- union with (Congress) Kingdom of Poland (until 1831 it was about souvereign
though tzar Miko?aj acted like if the constitution didn't exist);
CE Poland, SW Lithuania, small parts of western Byelorussia.
So, if we don't count Smole?sk, Byelorussia got under Russian control by part
43, 22 20, 8 and 0 years before Poland.
Most in 20/22 years befor Poland...
" You are running away from an answer. You said: "How USSR treated Poles can be seen in simple comparison; until Stalin got to power, there were 351 Polish school in EASTERN Byelorussia itself. Today, in entire Byelorussia there is one Polish school, built recently for Polish money."
So, I ask again: How many Byelorussian schools were in Poland in Stalin's times and how many Byelorussian schools in Poland now? I wounder if ever was a single such school in Poland. "
I don't know how it's about present times, but in those times they had 22 schools.
Note again, Polish state was a national state, SU was communistic state, and as
there was no Byelorussian literature language in fact, there was no need for those schools.
private schools existed, Byelorussians could found their own ones (2 of twenty-two in fact were
private). In USSR Poles couldn't have private schools, so the country had to make them for them.
"At least we are relatives.
(But, someday you'll pay for this "ugly" word.) "
In fact, I have a suspicion that You were adopted and that your true parents are Turks and Mongolians...
"Always was and always be. Because of the Constitution of republic Byelorus. "
Perhaps, I don't know. But if that wasn't Russian Empire, not USSR, why is it Russian?
Because it was language of the entire Empire? Why not esperanto?
"ZBIR??? WTF is this?"
In Polish; Zwi?zek Bia?orusi i Rosji.
Abbreviation=ZBIR.
In Polish, "zbir" means; "a bandit"
" Prove it. For more then 70 years 15 national republics lived in one country known as Soviet Union. Before this time the same nations lived in Russian Empire. But they didn't lost their uniqe cultures, languages or traditions during all those years. "
I believe that in fact, communism SHOULD make the nations disappear or loose on importance
if it is communism, but still, SU made nations rusificate...
Again, I tell You; in Byelorussia, hardly anyone knows how to speak Byelorussian.
Isn't that enough proof?
" You know, dictators usally don't dream to make its country a province of foreign country. It's against the idea of dictatorship, the idea of absolute power."
?ukaszenka wants to be a dictator - in Moscow, however, or he is afraid that he'll lose his
power in Byeloruthenia if he won't stick to someone big, strong&ruthless enough to protect
him despite what he does in Byelorussia. Big, bad and ruthless... Definition of Russia!
"Why you just can't face it: BEYLORUSSIANS DON"T WANT TO LIVE WITH YOU IN ONE COUNTRY. THEY WANT TO LIVE IN ONE COUNTRY WITH US. And this is not the wish of only their president, but wish of entire Byelorussian people. The polls in Byelorussia and in Russia shows that absolutely majority of people in Byelorussia and Russia want to live in united country. Case is closed. Byelorussian people feel that they more tied with Russia then with Poland."
Perhaps, but;
1)Knowing ?ukaszenka, why are You so sure that the polls aren't forged?
2)Who cares what Russians want?
3)People miss USSR, as ?ukaszenka is even worse.
They miss USSR, not Russians themselves, though yes, USSR was a mutation of RE
4)I guess Byelorussians would rather live in Poland than in Russia. We are richer,
tidier, and generally nicer. Especially me.
oh, and al(most)l ethnolinguists agree that Smole?sk area was a part of Byelorussian e-l area until recently
"None of these, save one, included territorial concessions."
hahahhahhahhahahhahhha
5. Colonies to have a say in their future
(6. German troops to leave Russia)
(7. Independence for Belgium)
8. France to regain Alsace-Lourraine
10. Self determination for the people of eastern Europe
13. Poland to become an independent state with access to the sea
Colonies lost - terrains lost for Germany.
Belgium and "Russia" -temporary gained land lost
Alsace-Lourraine - territorium lost
Self-determination of eastern Europe - that must have ment territorial losses
for Germany.
Poland - obvious German lost of territory.
(so four-six of them ment territorial losses of Germany)
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:20
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Heresson,
You've predicted that soon will be a long posts. You was right. 
quote:
Perhaps He was just aware that Stalin wishes to invade him (and the rest of Europe) |
Perhaps Stalin was just aware that Hitler wishes to invade SU? It was absolutely clear that communists can't avoid the clash with Nazi, but in 1939 SU was not ready for war yet. (Thanks to Stalin's purges in Red Army)
quote:
And even if so, SU prooved by this pact that it will assist Hitler in taking Poland, and made him sure that SU won't help Poland. So, SU made Hitler's invasion much much more likely. |
I agreed. It made the invasion in Poland more likely, but I'm still sure that you were unable to avoid this invasion. IMO Hitler attaked you in any case, even if he didn't signed a non-agression pact with SU. Stalin tried to win as more time as he can, bcs he was not ready for war with Hitler yet. And sure Hitler known about this and was sure that in case of invasion in Poland SU wouldn't declare war on Germany.
quote:
Because SU as a communitstic state should be fair, and if not help the victim of attack, it shouldn't help the attacker. You could say; Poland was doomed, so we just wanted to keep Hitler the farer the better from our borders" |
Yes, I could say that we wanted to keep Hitler as far away from our main cities as possible, but as for Stalin thoughts, I think he wanted to return Western Ukraina and Western Byelorussia to USSR. It was very lucky moment for him to do so, to take it without serious militery action.
quote:
But then think about that if not the pact signed, probably Hitler wouldn't risk invasion of Poland wand war with the West, and that by partaging Poland, You brought Hitler closer to your borders, and got rid of ally against it. You could say You wanted to take care of Byelorussians and Ukrainians. Then; why You occupied also clearly Polish areas? And why did Wilno/Vilnius take your interest? |
I'm still think that for people who populated those territories was much better to live under SU rule, then to die in Nazi death camps. Because no matter who they were Poles, Belorussian, Ukranians, Jews or Russians all of them were "non humans" for Hitler and should be eliminated in accordance with Nazi doctrine.
quote:
After all Lithuanians weren't one of the nations of your state. |
Yes, but not for long. After few months they become one of the nation of our state, again.
I guess Stalin could saw things in near perspective.
(I'm sorry, I guess it was a cruel joke a bit.)
quote:
USSR was primarly communistic state and though organised by national republics, as not-national state, it didn't have any right to speak as a representation of any of "its" nations. In another words; "SU's nations" are Byelorussians and Ukrainians in SU, but not Byeloruthenians and Ukrainians in another countries. |
It's in theory he shouldn't care. In real life all was otherwise. When we lost Western Ukraine after Brest treaty, many people consider this as betayal of our Slav's brothers.
quote:
Soviet Union, as a communistic state, should care about all the humanity, not only nations that lived in majority within its borders. Imagine old Poland treating itself as representation of all Jews around the war or Polish Jews as their representations, only because it had the world's largest Jewish population. It couldn't do that, as the aim of Polish state was either to represent its own citizens, no matter the nationality, or the interests of Poles. |
I don't agree with your example.Jew wern't a majority of your population and Jews didn't have their own state at this time, but if something of that kind happens today, f.e. if some country will declare that it wish to kill all jews within its borders and will start to do so, then I'm absolutely sure that after few hours Israel will declare war on this country.
quote:
So, SU's aim was either to care about its own citizens, or all communists around the world, or all humanity. |
Wrong, SU did it. And in fact it was the first major power who started war with fascism. SU send an army to Spain in 1936 to fight agains Franco and to China in 1937 to fight against Japan, while other major powers done nothing. I guess that in Spain or China weren't many representatives of SU's nations. So it might be consider only as care about all humanity.
quote:
I agree! I know Russians... he he eh
Anyway, SU needed the war with Poland and Petlura until Poland and Ukraine would grow in power.
Again, only a madman need another war, when he already in war with half of the World and with half of his own population and when it's hunger and chaos in his country. We were in similar situation as USSR. And Ukraine too. Our souvereignity wasn't accepted, our borders weren't accepted, we were surrounded by enemies. As You treat us as intervening force, we could treat You.
|
The problem is that SU didn't existed at this time. The political situation on territories of former Russian Empire was a real mess. One of the first Bolshevik's laws was the law about "right of the nation for self-determination".
If after the success of revolution Bolsheviks declared that Russian Empire remains in it's current borders and only chaged it's form of government, then everything was much easier for them. (And perhaps now we have this conversation on Russian instead of English )
But they created this law and officialy destroyed an Empire. Why? Because of their ideas or because they feel they can't spread communism on all territories of R.E.? Perhaps because of both.
quote:
That's the problem. You -theoretically- accepted independance of Poland, but only on a small part of our territory. If You had a chance, You'd take from us even Che?m and Bia?ystok. |
Don't twist the facts. The October revolution gave freedom to you, you didn't declared independance from Russia. You declared independance only becouse Bolshevicks gave this right to you.
quote:
We didn't send army on your territory. We were fighting on territory that was ours (why Soviet right to it was bigger than ours? The borders weren't settled, so talking about territory of one or another country isn't rational), and the territory of allied with us independant Ukraine, |
Perhaps you are right. It isn't rational. The borders weren't settled, becouse it was one state not so long ago. As for me, much proper to see it as as part of civil war, as part of war between Bolsheviks and non bolsheviks.
But as long you consider that Poland was an independant state at this time, then it is war between two states.... And so, it was an intervention of one state against another state.
Ooops... I forget that you calling this "the fight for independanse".
quote:
So, if we don't count Smole?sk, Byelorussia got under Russian control by part 43, 22 20, 8 and 0 years before Poland. Most in 20/22 years befor Poland... |
So what? Now you see that we are brothers with Byelorussians?
quote:
I don't know how it's about present times, but in those times they had 22 schools. Note again, Polish state was a national state, SU was communistic state, and as there was no Byelorussian literature language in fact, there was no need for those schools. private schools existed, Byelorussians could found their own ones (2 of twenty-two in fact were private). In USSR Poles couldn't have private schools, so the country had to make them for them. |
You are mistaken when you saying that SU wasn't a national state. In theory it shouldn't be, but it was. I can explain why there weren't many Polish schools in USSR, because Poland wasn't one of the Soviet Socialistic Republics. (It's all your fault, don't tell me that there was no offer to become a member of our club). In Soviet schools (believe me I know what I'm talking about, I remember those days, yet) education was on two languages: first Russian- as the official language of state and second- the language of your national republic (or autonomy, etc). So, f.e. in Byelorussia, students studied two languages: Russian and Byelorussian. and f.e. in any atounomy within Russian Soviet Federative Socialistic Republic (RSFSR), students studied two languages too. The Russian language and the langauge of this autonomy. So, for example if I'm Russian and live for example in Kazan, I should learned two langauges in school: Russian and Tatarian, because I live in autonomy within borders RSFSR.
There was no Polish autonomy in USSR, that's why there weren't many Polish schools.
quote:
In fact, I have a suspicion that You were adopted and that your true parents are Turks and Mongolians... |
Oh great!
First Ned said that Russian are desendents of Vikings. Now you are saying that we are children of Mongols and Turks. Great!
Is this bs will end someday? We are slavs. SLAVS. S-L-A-V-S.
quote:
Perhaps, I don't know. But if that wasn't Russian Empire, not USSR, why is it Russian? Because it was language of the entire Empire? Why not esperanto? |
Two reasons:
1) Russians were the majority of population. The Russian language was the most widespread language in R.E. and USSR. Whould you deny that is very practical that the official language of country is the language which is known to majority of population?
2) Esperanto is a monkey language. It sounds very silly.
quote:
In Polish; Zwi?zek Bia?orusi i Rosji. Abbreviation=ZBIR.
In Polish, "zbir" means; "a bandit" |
Ha ha ha.
Veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery funny. You are just jealos.
quote:
I believe that in fact, communism SHOULD make the nations disappear or loose on importance if it is communism, but still, SU made nations rusificate... |
Rusificate?
Bs, bs, mega-super-puper BS.
If Russians wanted to destroy local cultures, languages, traditions etc. of the minorities, then they acted like Americans or Canadians or Brits. Through rude force: no schools, no education on local language, abolish of local traditions, local religions by force etc. Russian have a lot of time for this. Just look on American solution: 1) using technical superiority wipe out Native Americans from their lands, 2) put them in small reservations.3) took their lands. 4) let them die as nation in those preservations 5)after 100 or so years forget about any problems with them.
Russia started its expantion in 16 century, so until SU collapsed in 1991, Russians have a lot of time to "Rusificate" it's entire territory if they wanted.
As for influece of Russian culture on other cultures within Empire/SU/RF I don't deny it. What do you expected? If f.e. group of people lives in one house through all their lives, sure the sooner or later their traditions will be mixed. The same as for Russia, we lived in one country through centuries and of course Russian culture influenced other cultures, but Russian culture, Russian language and traditions were under influence of cultures of other nationalities. Russia is the one big mix of nationalities, cultures, religions and traditions.
quote:
Again, I tell You; in Byelorussia, hardly anyone knows how to speak Byelorussian. Isn't that enough proof? |
It isn't a proof, because I don't believe in this. Perhaps you think that Byelorussians should learn some kind of Polish dialect, which you consider as true Byelorussian language. But I guess they know their language and learn this langauge in their schools.
quote:
?ukaszenka wants to be a dictator - in Moscow, |
 Lukashenko in Moscow? Good joke.
quote:
however, or he is afraid that he'll lose his power in Byeloruthenia if he won't stick to someone big, strong&ruthless enough to protect |
No,perhaps he just don't want to have any deal with someone who have a "small penis complex". With someone who is greedy and anoying.
Small, greedy and anoying- definition of Poland!
quote:
Perhaps, but;
1)Knowing ?ukaszenka, why are You so sure that the polls aren't forged?
2)Who cares what Russians want?
3)People miss USSR, as ?ukaszenka is even worse.
They miss USSR, not Russians themselves, though yes, USSR was a mutation of RE
4)I guess Byelorussians would rather live in Poland than in Russia. We are richer,
tidier, and generally nicer. Especially me. |
1) It was not single poll, but many polls with various check and poll done by different services. And no one protest about results of those polls.
2) Russians. It's our internal buissnes. And btw, Byelorussians want it more then we are.
3) Western media portray him as monster becouse he refused to kiss asses from Washington D.C.
4) It's only your wish. They don't care about you. They feel that they are tied with us more then with some one else. We share the commone history with Byelorussia, not you are. The people of Byelorussia made their choice, so case is closed. You may think whatever you want it will change nothing. Russia and Byelorussia soon will be a one country again. It is the wish of both Russian and Byelorussian people and it worth much more then your wish.
quote:
oh, and al(most)l ethnolinguists agree that Smole?sk area was a part of Byelorussian e-l area until recently |
Entomologists?
(Ok, just kidding.)
Smolensk is one of the first Slavs cities. When it was founded there was no difference between Russians and Byelorussians.
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Heresson
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of frogs
Jun 2000
time: 06:20
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"Perhaps Stalin was just aware that Hitler wishes to invade SU? It was absolutely clear that communists can't avoid the clash with Nazi, but in 1939 SU was not ready for war yet. (Thanks to Stalin's purges in Red Army)
How Hitler could think of invading SU without having a border with it?
:I agreed. It made the invasion in Poland more likely, but I'm still sure that you were unable to avoid this invasion. IMO Hitler attaked you in any case, even if he didn't signed a non-agression pact with SU. Stalin tried to win as more time as he can, bcs he was not ready for war with Hitler yet. And sure Hitler known about this and was sure that in case of invasion in Poland SU wouldn't declare war on Germany.
Imagine two burglars breaking into your house. they both steal as much as they can.
On the trial, one says; I'm not a burglar, and I made a burglary appointment wit that
awful and disgusting criminal because I knew he would rob You anyway, and I that I'll be the next one, so I really needed that money of yours to buy anti-alarm system for my house!
It would be silly, and in SU/Germany case, You can't be sure if Hitler would have attacked
Poland.
"Yes, I could say that we wanted to keep Hitler as far away from our main cities as possible, but as for Stalin thoughts, I think he wanted to return Western Ukraina and Western Byelorussia to USSR. It was very lucky moment for him to do so, to take it without serious militery action."
Kill the helpless! You can't say about "return" of "western Byelorussia and Ukraine"
to USSR, as those lands never belonged to USSR, were just under temporary Soviet occupation
during Polish-Soviet war.
"I'm still think that for people who populated those territories was much better to live under SU rule, then to die in Nazi death camps.
On the frontier rivers, people were travelling in both sides shouting to the ones going in the opposite direction that they must be mad to go there, as there's hell on "their"
side. Even Jews were fleeding from Soviet-occupied regions, and demanding allowance into
German-occupied parts of Poland, and there were examples of them (blessed are those
that aren't aware...) shouting "Heil Hitler"; one German officer was so flubberbotomized
by that that he let out a cry; "Jews, what are You doing? We'll kill You! But they
still wanted to go on the German side"
Byelorussians perhaps had better life under Soviet rule. With Ukrainians
I wouldn't be so sure. But Poles. Poles were treated as badly on one and on the other
side.
"Because no matter who they were Poles, Belorussian, Ukranians, Jews or Russians all of them were "non humans" for Hitler and should be eliminated in accordance with Nazi doctrine.
No, we were just inderhuman 
"Yes, but not for long. After few months they become one of the nation of our state, again.
I guess Stalin could saw things in near perspective.
(I'm sorry, I guess it was a cruel joke a bit.)
Stalin anected parts of Poland which's Polish ethnical status was never questioned.
So, Poles theoretically also became a nation of USSR for some time... And there were Poles
in USSR earlier. Why USSR didn't care about Poles, then?
It's in theory he shouldn't care. In real life all was otherwise. When we lost Western Ukraine after Brest treaty, many people consider this as betayal of our Slav's brothers.
Well, we treated it as Austrian (no-one believed in Germans) betrayal of Polish interest
because of Che?m case (not minding Wo?y? and other stuff)
"I don't agree with your example.Jew wern't a majority of your population
I ment; Poland was the biggest word center of Jewish people and Jewish culture.
and Jews didn't have their own state at this time,
So Poland...
but if something of that kind happens today, f.e. if some country will declare that it wish to kill all jews within its borders and will start to do so, then I'm absolutely sure that after few hours Israel will declare war on this country.
Yes. But that's because Israel is Jewish state. And USSR wasn't -shouldn't have been-
a state of Ukrainians or Byelorussians.
Wrong, SU did it. And in fact it was the first major power who started war with fascism.
No. It was Poland
SU send an army to Spain in 1936 to fight agains Franco and to China in 1937 to fight against Japan, while other major powers done nothing. I guess that in Spain or China weren't many representatives of SU's nations. So it might be consider only as care about all humanity.
There were a lot of Poles there too. general "Walter" f.e., later killed
oficially by Ukrainian nationalists (some people claim however that on Stalin's
command as Stalin somehow didn't like people of Spain, generally noone that knew
about any other version of communism than Soviet one.)
"The problem is that SU didn't existed at this time. The political situation on territories of former Russian Empire was a real mess. One of the first Bolshevik's laws was the law about "right of the nation for self-determination".
Yes, that was touching but had no bigger impact ob everything. Democtratic
Russian gouverment also gave Poland right of self-determination. But White Armies
didn't, at least not in what they didn't consider Poland, and we fought them
as well (and Pilsudzki's actions against You were being halted if White armies
operating on Ukraine were leading offensives against Soviets), so, anyhow,
we helped Soviets.
"If after the success of revolution Bolsheviks declared that Russian Empire remains in it's current borders and only chaged it's form of government, then everything was much easier for them. (And perhaps now we have this conversation on Russian instead of English )
A dlaczego niby nie po polsku?
But they created this law and officialy destroyed an Empire. Why? Because of their ideas or because they feel they can't spread communism on all territories of R.E.? Perhaps because of both.
No, because they wanted to get sympathy of former empire's people, and because they needed their help at first,
and wanted to make their enemies feel safe and sleep without fear, so that they could attack
and destroy them later.
"Don't twist the facts. The October revolution gave freedom to you, you didn't declared independance from Russia. You declared independance only becouse Bolshevicks gave this right to you.
Ha ha ha! You are really funny now. It had no bigger impact on polish situation. Russian
armies were far away, and anyway this "law" was "forgotten" as soon as it became useless
for Soviets.
"Perhaps you are right. It isn't rational. The borders weren't settled, becouse it was one state not so long ago. As for me, much proper to see it as as part of civil war, as part of war between Bolsheviks and non bolsheviks.
But as long you consider that Poland was an independant state at this time, then it is war between two states.... And so, it was an intervention of one state against another state.
Ooops... I forget that you calling this "the fight for independanse".
It was a civil war, and it was a war between two countries, and it was a fight for independance.
A civil war -as it was lead within the (crushing) borders of dieing empire.
it was a fight between two powers -and Soviet intervention in Poland, obviously.
It was also a fight for independance, as by oferred independance Soviets ment a place
as a republic of SU, with borders limited on the east as far as they could be,
and on the west probably too.
quote:
<http://apolyton.net/b.gif>
So, if we don't count Smole?sk, Byelorussia got under Russian control by part 43, 22 20, 8 and 0 years before Poland. Most in 20/22 years befor Poland...
<http://apolyton.net/b.gif>
"So what? Now you see that we are brothers with Byelorussians?
Ekhem? I don't understand? Byelorussia got under Russian power
not so long before Poland did. That's what I prooved.
"You are mistaken when you saying that SU wasn't a national state. In theory it shouldn't be, but it was. I can explain why there weren't many Polish schools in USSR,
There were and Poles were treated perhaps badly by Mi?sk, but good by Moscow at first
-until all were destroyed.
because Poland wasn't one of the Soviet Socialistic Republics. (It's all your fault, don't tell me that there was no offer to become a member of our club).
Yes. Theoretically no, but we were ordered to reduce our army by 20 times,
and hand over the armament to Soviets, and give Soviets the right to go into
Poland, which -again I say - was very reduced, reduced on the east to the borders
of today (wxcept for Grodno that was on the Polish side of Curzon line),
a very unjust territorial cut that would force Poland to resign of all mixed
ethnically territories, even with Polish majority) and Polish Soviet gouverment was
being formed... But again, when we agreed on the cease-fire borders on Curzon line,
Soviets weren't satisfied.
"In Soviet schools (believe me I know what I'm talking about, I remember those days, yet) education was on two languages: first Russian- as the official language of state and second- the language of your national republic (or autonomy, etc). So, f.e. in Byelorussia, students studied two languages: Russian and Byelorussian. and f.e. in any atounomy within Russian Soviet Federative Socialistic Republic (RSFSR), students studied two languages too. The Russian language and the langauge of this autonomy. So, for example if I'm Russian and live for example in Kazan, I should learned two langauges in school: Russian and Tatarian, because I live in autonomy within borders RSFSR.
There was no Polish autonomy in USSR, that's why there weren't many Polish schools.
I know about that Russian had to be learned and the language of the republic/autonomy.
The problem wa sthat there were in fact two Polish autonomies (and a third one was
to be found), so called "Dzier?y?szczyzna" and "Marchlewszczyzna"
but they were destroyed as well as smaller local national councils (not only Polish
here, but delete of bigger autonomies hit only Poles I believe)
"Oh great!
First Ned said that Russian are desendents of Vikings.
No no no. That Kievan Ru? was founded by Vikings.
And that's true.
"Now you are saying that we are children of Mongols and Turks. Great!
Is this bs will end someday? We are slavs. SLAVS. S-L-A-V-S.
Nonono. Slavs are nice, handsome, calm, cultural etc.
Vide: me.
Two reasons:
1) Russians were the majority of population.
Are You sure? It may be right, but if You count all the nations
of USSR, I doubt that Russians had more than a half-at the start.
The Russian language was the most widespread language in R.E. and USSR.
So, temporarly, it could became the official language, but SU should have cut
off from imperialistic Russian remains.
"Whould you deny that is very practical that the official language of country is the language which is known to majority of population?
Even today, many citizens of Russian federational republics don't know Russian.
They should, but they don't.
2) Esperanto is a monkey language. It sounds very silly.
It is very very good, as it was created by a Polish(-Jewish)
guy from Bia?ystok ;p
Ha ha ha.
Veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery funny. You are just jealos.
no, we have EU to get united with.
in our history we had unions with;
-Russia -aaaaaaaaaaargh
-Finland -through Russia
-Lithuania (with Byelorus) -brought us closer to Russia, but was OK
-Ukraine -for a short time
-Saxony -well, the king transported Rubenses from Warsaw to Dresden.
-(almost with Brandenburg) - I regret it didn't came true.
-Transsilvania -quite good.
-Hungary - normal
-Croatia -through Hungary
-Bulgaria ---
-(etc) ---
-Lorraigne (France) -king on exile
-Zweibrucken (Germany) -king on exile
-France -temporary
-Sweden(with Finland) -aaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh
-Bohemia -bad
-(well, I could count also)Bari (Italy) -Spaniards stole it.
...
"Rusificate?
Bs, bs, mega-super-puper BS.
If Russians wanted to destroy local cultures, languages, traditions etc. of the minorities, then they acted like Americans or Canadians or Brits. Through rude force: no schools, no education on local language, abolish of local traditions, local religions by force etc.
Ekhem, that's what You were doing with Poles, Germans, Tatars, Tchechenians...
Russian have a lot of time for this. Just look on American solution: 1) using technical superiority wipe out Native Americans from their lands,
Past centuries.
2) put them in small reservations.
Which somehow remind me Russian ways in Syberia. It is now mostly
Russians, and autochtons were limitated to small small republics
that we could call reservates.
3) took their lands.
Exactly what You were doing! Especially with Polish landowners.
4) let them die as nation in those preservations
Well, again, in Ukraine and Byelorussia native languages almost died because
of You. They are in fact alive only on the lands that belonged before the war
to Poland...
Russia started its expantion in 16 century,
XV -since the seizure of Nowogród Wielki (your tzar attacked it after it signed
a pact with our king. It tried to save itself from Moscow's tyranny by allying
ith us, but our king somehow didn't try to fix it.)
so until SU collapsed in 1991, Russians have a lot of time to "Rusificate" it's entire territory if they wanted.
As for influece of Russian culture on other cultures within Empire/SU/RF I don't deny it. What do you expected? If f.e. group of people lives in one house through all their lives, sure the sooner or later their traditions will be mixed. The same as for Russia, we lived in one country through centuries and of course Russian culture influenced other cultures,
Especially Mongol...
but Russian culture, Russian language and traditions were under influence of cultures of other nationalities. Russia is the one big mix of nationalities, cultures, religions and traditions.
Perhaps, but Russians didn't start to speak Ukrainian or Byelorussian or Polish,
and Russians flooded the rest of republics, vide Latvia and Estonia.
It isn't a proof, because I don't believe in this. Perhaps you think that Byelorussians should learn some kind of Polish dialect, which you consider as true Byelorussian language.
Yes, Byelorussian of today is heavily rusificated, but even that language isn't commonly known.
But I guess they know their language and learn this langauge in their schools.
No they don't. It's official, it's Byelorussian official poll.
You can read about it everywhere.
Lukashenko in Moscow? Good joke.
No, it's scary
No,perhaps he just don't want to have any deal with someone who have a "small penis complex".
If so, why does he stick to Russia?
With someone who is greedy and anoying.
Small, greedy and anoying- definition of Poland!
Small - Russian economy is smaller than the Dutch because
of the pauverty. greedy- it's Russia that sucks millions of
western dollars and spends them all on vodla libations it seems.
Annoying - no comments...
1) It was not single poll, but many polls with various check and poll done by different services. And no one protest about results of those polls.
No-one but Byelorussian opposition, repressed by the dictator.
You don't seem to notice it. And anyway all medias are in the "president's"
hands. What do You expect?.
2) Russians. It's our internal buissnes. And btw, Byelorussians want it more then we are.
I can believe that. But once that they'll have the union and no-help will come
(and it won't, Russia is too poor to help itself even despite its all natural resources
and extraordinary chances opened before it)
3) Western media portray him as monster becouse he refused to kiss asses from Washington D.C.
No. Because he breaks international treaties by f.e. stealing other countries'
property and occupying their territories (case of embassies), violates the constitution,
bans and kills political oponents, persecutes Polish minority.
4) It's only your wish. They don't care about you. They feel that they are tied with us more then with some one else. We share the commone history with Byelorussia, not you are.
Really? What happended to all Byelorussian history since middle ages to industrial age,
then?
The people of Byelorussia made their choice,
?ukaszenka made. I guess majority of people supports him, so he can do it
despite he occupies president's seat illegally.
so case is closed. You may think whatever you want it will change nothing. Russia and Byelorussia soon will be a one country again. It is the wish of both Russian and Byelorussian people and it worth much more then your wish.
Yes. The mighty Mi?sk-Moscow Empire? Will You be in need to borrow money
to pay for printing of new stamps?
Entomologists?
(Ok, just kidding.)
he he in fact there is a Polish film, popular also in Ukraine, Odessa, where the action takes
place, called "deja vu". It is a bit crazy, but nice. One scenae that I remembered since my childhood
up to the last year when I watched it again was a scene of killing one poor enthomologist by local
mafia. Or were that secret services? It was pretty nice, especially when a guy dressed up in White
Army suit (ran out of a film scenery) enters the city and people think that contrrevolution begins...
Smolensk is one of the first Slavs cities. When it was founded there was no difference between Russians and Byelorussians.
-and Poles and Byelorussians, and Russians and Poles.
-Smolensk is a Lithuanian city
Of course. Polish-Lithuanian-Byelorussian. No place for
Muscuvians.
-Lithuania was forcefully occupied by Russia, not joined the SU. Anyone who claims otherwise doesn't know jack.
-or is a Russian...
-It's VILNIUS, not Wilna
No it isn't Wilna. WilnO
Ah, I try to not hurt your feelings to write Wilno/Vilnius constantly,
sorry if I forgot about it somewhere.
No it's not like Gda?sk;
1)There are almost no germans in it now, while there is still big minority of Poles (3-4 x less than before the war but...) in the city, and Poles are still majority around
why Germans wer never majority in villages surrounding Gda?sk. Additionally, Germans caused the war, and we were victims. Germans still are thinking about getting back what they "lost" by the war, and we are in cordial relationships with Lithuania. I'll call Wilno/Vilnius Wilno,
as that's the Polish name for it and there's no English one,
and as it doesn't indicate that I'm supporting partage of Lithuania, I see no reason to use Lithuanian name for it.
By the way, Saras. Recently we were visited by one Russian politic that urged us to take Wilno/Vilnius back...
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Ecthy
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Zhonghuà Rénmín Gònghéguó
Mar 2000
time: 06:20
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I'm sure you stole it somewhere. That'd be typical for your kind.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:20
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 I wish I know wtf it means.
quote:
How Hitler could think of invading SU without having a border with it? |
That's why he invaded Poland. To gain an access to our border.
quote:
Imagine two burglars breaking into your house. they both steal as much as they can. On the trial, one says; I'm not a burglar, and I made a burglary appointment wit that awful and disgusting criminal because I knew he would rob You anyway, and I that I'll be the next one, so I really needed that money of yours to buy anti-alarm system for my house! It would be silly, and in SU/Germany case, You can't be sure if Hitler would have attacked Poland. |
But, you forget to mention that it was house of another burglar and that the second burglar took the money previously stolen from him.
quote:
Kill the helpless! You can't say about "return" of "western Byelorussia and Ukraine" to USSR, as those lands never belonged to USSR, were just under temporary Soviet occupation during Polish-Soviet war. |
They belonged to Ukraine and Byelorussia, two of four republics which later were co-founders of SU.
quote:
Even Jews were fleeding from Soviet-occupied regions, and demanding allowance into German-occupied parts of Poland, and there were examples of them (blessed are those that aren't aware...) shouting "Heil Hitler"; one German officer was so flubberbotomized by that that he let out a cry; "Jews, what are You doing? We'll kill You! But they still wanted to go on the German side" |
Sorry it sound's like bs-story. I can't imagine a Jew who wished to commite a suicide that way. flubber- bubber- botomayber Monkey langauge. WTF is this word mean anyway?
quote:
No, we were just inderhuman |
Oh, I see. Big difference.
quote:
Why USSR didn't care about Poles, then? |
Perhaps because you refused to join the happy family of Soviet Republics?
quote:
I ment; Poland was the biggest word center of Jewish people and Jewish culture. |
But, Jews weren't a majority of your population. Poland didn't consider itself as Jewish state. (Or perhaps I'm mistaken?)
quote:
Yes. But that's because Israel is Jewish state. And USSR wasn't -shouldn't have been- a state of Ukrainians or Byelorussians. |
It shhouldn't have been, but it was.
quote:
A dlaczego niby nie po polsku? |
Because I don't know Polish.
quote:
A civil war -as it was lead within the (crushing) borders of dieing empire. it was a fight between two powers -and Soviet intervention in Poland, obviously. |
How did you said it?  Kill the helpless? It was you who started military campaign against Soviets, not otherwise.
quote:
It was also a fight for independance, as by oferred independance Soviets ment a place as a republic of SU, with borders limited on the east as far as they could be, and on the west probably too. |
You shouldn't started a war in first place if you wanted to remain independant.
quote:
Ha ha ha! You are really funny now. It had no bigger impact on polish situation. Russian armies were far away, and anyway this "law" was "forgotten" as soon as it became useless for Soviets. |
No, I mean something different, not the law exactly, but whole situation after revolution. I mean, if there was no revolution, if Russian Emire wasn't destroyed you still was under Moscow's control. So, you should thank Bolshevicks for your inependance.
quote:
Ekhem? I don't understand? Byelorussia got under Russian power not so long before Poland did. That's what I prooved |
Not "not so long", but "EARLIER". Do you see the difference?
quote:
There were and Poles were treated perhaps badly by Mi?sk, but good by Moscow at first -until all were destroyed. |
It was war, we were an enemies. Why Poles should be good treated by an enemy?
quote:
But again, when we agreed on the cease-fire borders on Curzon line, Soviets weren't satisfied. |
Sure. The victory was close and they wanted "to help" Germans.
quote:
No no no. That Kievan Ru? was founded by Vikings. And that's true. |
No, it wasn't. NO, NO,No-No-no-no.. No-NOnoNOnoNONOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO........no.
(Try to find something agaist this argument.) Or try to find a single evidence that Kiev was founded by Vikings.
quote:
Nonono. Slavs are nice, handsome, calm, cultural etc. Vide: me. |
Oh sure. Uber humans. btw, you forget to mention "... and usally Ortodox Christians"
quote:
Are You sure? It may be right, but if You count all the nations of USSR, I doubt that Russians had more than a half-at the start. |
I'm absolutely sure. Ok, one more try. For example 60% of population of country are representatives of nationality A and speaks on A language, the remaining 40% are representatives of different nationalities and speaks on B,C,D,E,F,G, etc. The question is: Which language should be an official language of the state?
quote:
So, temporarly, it could became the official language, but SU should have cut off from imperialistic Russian remains. |
And how you suggest to do so? Esperanto? Don't make me laugh.
quote:
Even today, many citizens of Russian federational republics don't know Russian. They should, but they don't. |
Many? I guess you could find a couple of elders somewhere in Kavkaz (Caucasus???), who don't speak Russian, they just don't need it in their usall life. But if they want to trip, to communicate, to make buissnes with people from other regions they should know Russian.
quote:
It is very very good, as it was created by a Polish(-Jewish) guy from Bia?ystok ;p |
It's monkey language. Everyone who speaks on Esperanto are clowns who don't know how to spend their time. Instead of learning an Esperanto they could learn some real languages, like Russian or Chinese.
quote:
no, we have EU to get united with. |
I'm proud of you.
quote:
Ekhem, that's what You were doing with Poles, Germans, Tatars, Tchechenians... ....Past centuries. |
Exactly. The centuries are past, but Russia is still a multinational country. If we wanted to destroy minor cultures and as you said "to Rusificate" our country we have a lot of time for this.
quote:
Which somehow remind me Russian ways in Syberia. It is now mostly Russians, and autochtons were limitated to small small republics that we could call reservates. |
When Russians come here it was poorly populated area. Soon they become a majority of population here, but they didn't put loacls in reservations.
And btw, do you know which is the largest subject of Russian Federation? It's Yakutsk's autonomy region, where live mostly Yakuts. I guess you can place a dozen of Polands on its territory. "Small, small republics that we could call resevates"
quote:
Exactly what You were doing! Especially with Polish landowners. |
Blah, after revolution bolsheviks took lands from everyone not only Polish landowners.
quote:
Well, again, in Ukraine and Byelorussia native languages almost died because of You. They are in fact alive only on the lands that belonged before the war to Poland... |
Tell this to Kuchma or to Lukashenko. I guess they will laugh long after such words.
quote:
XV -since the seizure of Nowogród Wielki (your tzar attacked it after it signed a pact with our king. It tried to save itself from Moscow's tyranny by allying ith us, but our king somehow didn't try to fix it.) |
It was the gathering of Russian lands around Moscow. I don't count this as an expantion, but as unification of Russian cities under rule of one Tzar.
quote:
Especially Mongol... |
What's you problem with Mongols?
quote:
Perhaps, but Russians didn't start to speak Ukrainian or Byelorussian or Polish... |
We took a huge amount of words from Ukrainian and Byelorussian .
quote:
...and Russians flooded the rest of republics, vide Latvia and Estonia. |
So, what? We are explorers and like to travel time after time, to see new places, to meet with new peoples. What the f*ck do you think we forget in Siberia few cenuries ago. Do you forget that we are "expantionist and scientific"?
No it's silly.
Can you explain how he could apear in Kremlin?
quote:
If so, why does he stick to Russia? |
Because we are different. As you said we are bad, big and ruthless.
quote:
Small - Russian economy is smaller than the Dutch because of the pauverty. greedy- it's Russia that sucks millions of western dollars and spends them all on vodla libations it seems. Annoying - no comments... |
Economy, economy.... You always point on our weak place. Just give us time and everything will be fine again, we are working on it. And we don't suck millions of western dollars. It is you, who suck our oil, gas and electricity. So just shut up please. If we'll close the oil tube you will beging for mercy.
quote:
No-one but Byelorussian opposition, repressed by the dictator. You don't seem to notice it. And anyway all medias are in the "president's" hands. What do You expect?. |
Well, actully I noticed them. I saw in TV news a few jerks with signs in their hands, who protested against dictatorship of Lukashenko. Other people look on them like on clowns and laughed.
quote:
No. Because he breaks international treaties by f.e. stealing other countries' property and occupying their territories (case of embassies), |
You count him as agressor? as intervent?
quote:
...violates the constitution, |
The constitution created by himself?
What a monster!!! He violates his own constitution.
quote:
bans and kills political oponents, |
So, now he is murder! Any evidence?
quote:
persecutes Polish minority. |
It looks like real reason. Can you explain how exactly he persecutes Polish minority.
quote:
?ukaszenka made. I guess majority of people supports him, so he can do it despite he occupies president's seat illegally. |
It is very ineresting to hear why he occupies president's seat illegally? You said that the majority of people supports him.
quote:
Yes. The mighty Mi?sk-Moscow Empire? Will You be in need to borrow money to pay for printing of new stamps? |
Yes, the mighty and terrible. And it's only a beggining. Put you money in your.... well you know which place I mean.
quote:
he he in fact there is a Polish film, popular also in Ukraine, Odessa, where the action takes place, called "deja vu". It is a bit crazy, but nice. |
You get it wrong, it's a Russian film!
Ok, ok, they guy who played a major character is Polish, but other actors are Russian. It's a cooperative work of our cinematografists.
quote:
One scenae that I remembered since my childhood up to the last year when I watched it again was a scene of killing one poor enthomologist by local mafia. |
It's funny, becouse when I typed "Entomologists?" I thought exactly about this scene.
quote:
Or were that secret services? It was pretty nice, especially when a guy dressed up in White Army suit (ran out of a film scenery) enters the city and people think that contrrevolution begins... |
No, entomologist was killed by American who run away to Odessa to hide from his former freinds and who later become the boss of local mafia. He thought that he killing an killer hired by Chicago's mafia.
And yes, it's funny movie.
quote:
Of course. Polish-Lithuanian-Byelorussian. No place for Muscuvians. |
You and Saras are total bastards, both of you. You remind me two well-know intellectuals:
Bvs."- It's our city. hehe he-he"
Btd."- Right, cool, he-he, he-he. Russians sucks he-he"
Bvs."- Let's burn their capital!!! he he"
Btd."- Cool. he he"
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Heresson
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of frogs
Jun 2000
time: 06:20
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"I wish I know wtf it means.
Well, I won't say anything about the literate
translation , but it means sth like; suprised, shocked.
Well that's wha we were told
"That's why he invaded Poland. To gain an access to our border.
He he he nice idea. If someone would conquer China, with your help, would You
also think he did that just to get closer to You?
"But, you forget to mention that it was house of another burglar and that the second burglar took the money previously stolen from him.
It was no burglar. We had no more territorial aspirations,
didn't anect anyone or demand new lands as You. We wanted to live in peace, alone.
You didn't. And you forget that this money wasn't stolen, but part of much bigger
money once stolen and later retrieved.
"They belonged to Ukraine and Byelorussia, two of four republics which later were co-founders of SU.
They didn't, as Byelorussia didn't exist, and Ukraine made pact with
us, handing over the lands on the western bank of Zbrucz in return for
help in its fight against Soviets that wanted to annect it.
"Sorry it sound's like bs-story. I can't imagine a Jew who wished to commite a suicide that way.
It is hard to believe, isn't it. But people weren't yet aware.
But, Jews weren't a majority of your population. Poland didn't consider itself as Jewish state. (Or perhaps I'm mistaken?)
Were Byelorussians or Ukrainians majority of Soviet population?
"It shhouldn't have been, but it was.
Not oficially.
"Because I don't know Polish.
And I don't know Russian.
"How did you said it? Kill the helpless? It was you who started military campaign against Soviets, not otherwise.
Soviets weren't helpless, had 3-mln army ready to conquer the war, and again a quote;
"the way to the world revolution goes through the dead body of Poland". You shouldn't
have been discussing the plans of invading us so loud, and shouldn't have attacked
our Ukrainian ally.
"You shouldn't started a war in first place if you wanted to remain independant.
We wouldn't stay independant if You didn't provoke the war.
"No, I mean something different, not the law exactly, but whole situation after revolution. I mean, if there was no revolution, if Russian Emire wasn't destroyed you still was under Moscow's control. So, you should thank Bolshevicks for your inependance.
No. Again, Russian forces were far, far away, on the former Russian-German front.
"Not "not so long", but "EARLIER". Do you see the difference?
Phi. Estonia and most of Latvia (Peter the Great promised it to August II,
but didn't keep his word) became part of Russia earlier. Do You mean they are closer
to You than Byelorussia because of that, hm?
"It was war, we were an enemies. Why Poles should be good treated by an enemy?
I'm talking about the thirties. There was peace treaty signed for some years already!
"Sure. The victory was close and they wanted "to help" Germans.
So You admit it was the goal of SU and to achieve that it had to crush Poland.
Causa finita.
"No, it wasn't. NO, NO,No-No-no-no.. No-NOnoNOnoNONOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO........no.
(Try to find something agaist this argument.) Or try to find a single evidence that Kiev was founded by Vikings.
All thge chronicles say that. Admit obvious and reknown facts.
Oh sure. Uber humans. btw, you forget to mention "... and usally Ortodox Christians"
Slavic folks;
-?u?yczans - catholic and protestant.
-Poles- catholic, a bit protestant, a bit orthodox.
-Chechs- catholic (a bit protestant mostly atheist right now)
-Slovakians -catholic, a bit protestant
-Slovenians-catholic
-Croatians-catholic
-Bosnians-catholic and orthodox and muslim
-Bulgarians-orthodox
-Macedonians- orthodox
-Serbs-orthodox
-Ukrainians- orthodox and Greek-catholic
-Byelorussians- orthodox. There used to be catholics and protestants, but they were rather Poles.
-Russians-orthodox.
So, of 12 Slavic nations,
only 6,3 are orthodox.,
You could call it mostly, but not usually.
"I'm absolutely sure. Ok, one more try. For example 60% of population of country are representatives of nationality A and speaks on A language, the remaining 40% are representatives of different nationalities and speaks on B,C,D,E,F,G, etc. The question is: Which language should be an official language of the state?
language P. Like Polish
No, if it isn't a national state for the A nation, there should be more than one one general
langauge, like in Switzerland.
"And how you suggest to do so? Esperanto? Don't make me laugh.
Surely not Russian.
"Many? I guess you could find a couple of elders somewhere in Kavkaz (Caucasus???), who don't speak Russian, they just don't need it in their usall life. But if they want to trip, to communicate, to make buissnes with people from other regions they should know Russian.
Couple of elders and couple of the young ones.
I believe that Baszkiria even didn't send documents in Russian as it should.
"It's monkey language. Everyone who speaks on Esperanto are clowns who don't know how to spend their time. Instead of learning an Esperanto they could learn some real languages, like Russian or Chinese.
Mo no no. Everyone should learn Esperanto. Widely-spreaded national languages are
dangerous.
"Exactly. The centuries are past, but Russia is still a multinational country. If we wanted to destroy minor cultures and as you said "to Rusificate" our country we have a lot of time for this.
It's like with Arabic empire. Theoretically they were tolerantial
(though I think that Roman Empire was much more tolerantial),
but the results are that except for Lebanon, Christian percentage dropped
by centuries from some 95% to a really pathethic number, as well as pre-Arab
labguages were eliminated. And Arabs did that in much more peacefull and civilised
way than Russians sometimes did.
If Russian culture wouldn't be agressively expansionistic, it would be still locked
in its first borders.
"When Russians come here it was poorly populated area. Soon they become a majority of population here, but they didn't put loacls in reservations.
The same for USA. The terrain was poorly poulated, so they just were taking the "unused"
terrains wondering what the **** Indians want.
And btw, do you know which is the largest subject of Russian Federation?
It's Yakutsk's autonomy region, where live mostly Yakuts. I guess you can place
a dozen of Polands on its territory. "Small, small republics that we could call resevates"
Jakucja is indeed big -as all Russia, but it's the biggest of non-Russian autonomies
not of all subjects. The biggest subject is Russian republic, even without autonomic
regions. And now compare the size of Tatarstan with what they had until they got under Russian power,
for example. Or Kraj A?tajski witj republic of A?taj. Most of Syberian land is in Russian hands,
not in the hands of natives.
And if those republics are really just in federation, not under Moscow's domination, why can't
they get the independance some of them would like to have (Tchechenia)?
It's not about what Tchechenians are or what they are doing now, but why Moscow didn't accept
their souvereignity?
Blah, after revolution bolsheviks took lands from everyone not only Polish landowners.
Who cares? You took someone's land. That You took the land from everyone it is even worse.
"Tell this to Kuchma or to Lukashenko. I guess they will laugh long after such words.
Are You really so unaware what is happening there? In fact, I doubt if ?ukaszenka speaks Byelorussian.
In eastern Ukraine, no-one can speak Ukrainian. Not even the mixed Ukrainian-Russian slang.
"It was the gathering of Russian lands around Moscow. I don't count this as an expantion, but as unification of Russian cities under rule of one Tzar.
If they wanted or if they didn't.
They didn't. Of course, they didn't want to be under Polish or Lithuanian rule too,
but no-one wanted to destroy Nowogród from our side, Muscovians did that.
"What's you problem with Mongols?
"It's a problem with Russians.
We took a huge amount of words from Ukrainian and Byelorussian .
us too. And our culture is heavily influenced by Ukraine, as in fact
their literature until some time ment Polish literature.
Still, No-one in Russia resigns of using Russian.
"So, what? We are explorers
he he he. Do You know that:
"Long ago in the Russian hills a Victorian explorer found..."
and like to travel time after time, to see new places, to meet with new peoples. What the f*ck do you think we forget in Siberia few cenuries ago. Do you forget that we are "expantionist and scientific"?
Russia? Scientific? LOL.
The problem is that You travelled, and then "forgot your way home".
"No it's silly.
Can you explain how he could apear in Kremlin?
I doubt he could. But some think He thinks he could.
Because we are different. As you said we are bad, big and ruthless.
Oh, not everything in Russia in big!
Nie zapominaj tej historii wyjasniajacej dlaczego w Imperium Rosyjskim
wprowadzono szersze tory kolejowe. To tylko anegdotka, oczywiscie.
Przyprowadzono in?yniera przed oblicze cara, a ten pytal sie jak urzadzic ta
kolej. Pytal miedzy innymi;
"a czy tory powinny byc wezsze? Czy szersze?"
I car odpowiedzial; "A na chuja szersze!"
I wzieto jego wypowiedz doslownie. Dalsza czesc anegdotki mowi ze
robiono to podczas zimy i dlatego ta miara byla taka niewielka...
"Economy, economy.... You always point on our weak place. Just give us time and everything will be fine again, we are working on it. And we don't suck millions of western dollars. It is you, who suck our oil, gas and electricity. So just shut up please. If we'll close the oil tube you will beging for mercy.
Phi. No, You'll beg for mercy, as primo, we can take oil from Norway,
secundo, if You close the oilpipe for Poland, You'll have to close it for all the Europe,
and not only will loose the only money You have, but also will unite against You all western powers.
And You do suck western money. Now, under Putin, not as much as under Jelcyn (Yeltzin), though.
"Well, actully I noticed them. I saw in TV news a few jerks with signs in their hands, who protested against dictatorship of Lukashenko. Other people look on them like on clowns and laughed.
That's the way ?ukaszenka shows them, and I guess Russian tv shows them in the same way.
That's the way that Soviet tv showed all that it didn't like I guess. And You haven't changed much since.
"You count him as agressor? as intervent?
Territories of embassies are counted by international law as the souvereign part of the territory
of a state to which the embassy belongs. By occupying embassies, ?ukaszenka violates foreign territory.
"The constitution created by himself?
What a monster!!! He violates his own constitution.
He violated the constitution by changing it to what he likes.
"So, now he is murder! Any evidence?
I guess the earlier situation and lack of that person is enough
to say that something happened. "You can't be sure" but You can say
it is highly possible.
"It looks like real reason. Can you explain how exactly he persecutes Polish minority.
It isn't anything monsterous really, but I guess that Jews f.e. don't feel too good
if they are said to be the source of all the evil and the internal dangerous enemy
that should be something done about". And that's what he does as "Poland is ready to attack".
Except for that, he doesn't allow Polish schools, Polish (catholic) churches etc. not to mind
reprivatisation He also claims that every Pole borned on the ground that today belongs to
Byelorussia is a Byelorussian and stuff and says some nice things about our state... Nothing
really cruel, at least yet. I'm not quite sure how it is with the press.
"It is very ineresting to hear why he occupies president's seat illegally? You said that the majority
of people supports him.
He manipulated the constitution so that he could stay in his seat two years longer, which was illegal.
Yes, the mighty and terrible. And it's only a beggining. Put you money in your.... well you know which place I mean.
He he he It's not our money, but please say it to the ones that actually give it to You. I hope they'll
listen to You! Still, they give it to You because they are afriad that otherwise your situation would
get so bad that some ultranationalists of yours could get the power and try to force ex-Soviet states
back into your arms, not to mind Central Europe and to nuke the western part.
I don't agree with that. If You tried, You'd be smashed. I doubt all your territory
can be captured, at least easily, but to kill some millions of your soldiers wouldn't
be a hard task.
"You get it wrong, it's a Russian film!
Ok, ok, they guy who played a major character is Polish, but other actors are Russian. It's a cooperative work of our cinematografists.
Yes. I knew there is sth wrong with it
No, entomologist was killed by American who run away to Odessa to hide from his former freinds and who later become the boss of local mafia. He thought that he killing an killer hired by Chicago's mafia.
Yes, You are right! Now I remember.
You and Saras are total bastards, both of you. You remind me two well-know intellectuals:
Bvs."- It's our city. hehe he-he"
Btd."- Right, cool, he-he, he-he. Russians sucks he-he"
Bvs."- Let's burn their capital!!! he he"
Btd."- Cool. he he"
Do You know that joke of Radio Erewan?;
American listener calls to Radio Erywa?;
-Hey RE. Tell me please, what is the most important city of SU?
RE replies immediately;
-Erewan of course!
American listener;
-and how many nukes do we need to destroy that Erewan?
RE;
-You know, Moscow is a very important city too...!
Oh I guess I told it once before, but who cares.
Anyway it's You that deny pure facts, like those about domination
of Russian language in Byelorussia and Eastern Ukraine.
And how could I stole my conversation from somewhere?
And what is my type?
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:20
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Damn, the post become longer and longer. So,
part one.
quote:
Well, I won't say anything about the literate translation , but it means sth like; suprised, shocked. Well that's wha we were told. |
It sounds very funny, almost like lobotomized.
quote:
He he he nice idea. If someone would conquer China, with your help, would You also think he did that just to get closer to You? |
Only if this "someone" before invasion will say to his generals: "It's our historical mission to wipe out all those commies and to gain more living space for our growing "Uber nation"" ( by "commies" he didn't mean Chinese of course.)
Why not to start from times of "Adam and Eve" to find out true origin of those lands.
Poland was devided "legaly" between 3 victorious countries. Does it mean "stolen"?
quote:
They didn't, as Byelorussia didn't exist, and Ukraine made pact with us, handing over the lands on the western bank of Zbrucz in return for help in its fight against Soviets that wanted to annect it. |
All depends with whom you signed agreements. As you said both of them (and btw, you too) weren't recognized as independant countries. So, you can't made any deal with official government of Ukraine, because it wasn't official, because it wasn't recognized as such one. Anyone could have ANY deal with ANY band of ANY morons who claimed themself as government of Ukraine.
quote:
Were Byelorussians or Ukrainians majority of Soviet population? |
No, but they were representatives of 2 of 15 republics of SU. And SU claims that all nationalities within SU is equal, so there was no difference for him- are they majority of population or not. SU was their common home. And SU has full right to speak as defender of some of his nationalities.
quote:
And I don't know Russian. |
That's what I was trying to say. You surely should know Russain if Poland was one of the republics of SU.
quote:
Soviets weren't helpless, had 3-mln army ready to conquer the war, and again a quote; "the way to the world revolution goes through the dead body of Poland". You shouldn't have been discussing the plans of invading us so loud, and shouldn't have attacked our Ukrainian ally. |
3-mln army??? In 1919???
We were in the middle of civil war and half of the World was against us. If portray it as you helped your ally to resist Soviet agression, then I can also portray it as Soviets helped their ally to resist Polish intervention.
quote:
We wouldn't stay independant if You didn't provoke the war. |
We provoked the war? We already have a dozen of wars and a great famine at this time. Why should we wanted another war? To make our life more extremal then it was? Sure, Russians love extreme, but everything has its limits.
quote:
No. Again, Russian forces were far, far away, on the former Russian-German front. |
What's the differense where forces were? I'm trying to say that you gained independance only becouse Empire collapsed becouse of Bolsheviks and that you should thanks Bolsheviks for your independance.
quote:
Phi. Estonia and most of Latvia (Peter the Great promised it to August II, but didn't keep his word) became part of Russia earlier. Do You mean they are closer to You than Byelorussia because of that, hm? |
No. They are not Slavs. We always fought with them.
quote:
I'm talking about the thirties. There was peace treaty signed for some years already! |
Perhaps Stalin was still mad that he was unable to capture Warsaw?
quote:
So You admit it was the goal of SU and to achieve that it had to crush Poland. Causa finita. |
Yes, it had to crush Poland, becouse at the first place Poland started war against Soviets.
quote:
All thge chronicles say that. Admit obvious and reknown facts. |
None chronical says that.
quote:
You could call it mostly, but not usually. |
Ok. Mostly.
quote:
No, if it isn't a national state for the A nation, there should be more than one one general langauge, like in Switzerland. |
Yes it's a good solution if state has only two or maximum 3 nationalities. What if hundreds like in SU? Can you imagine a state with hundred of official languages? Soviets choosed the more or less logical solution. One (the language of majority of population) is language for use in every region and the local language for use in that local region. In every republics all signs were on two languages: Russian and the language of this Republic. I don't see any problem in that.
quote:
Surely not Russian. |
Then wich one?
quote:
Couple of elders and couple of the young ones. I believe that Baszkiria even didn't send documents in Russian as it should. |
You are mistaken about Bashkiria.
quote:
If Russian culture wouldn't be agressively expansionistic, it would be still locked in its first borders. |
Blah, just don't tell me that Poland wasn't an agressively expansionistic. You were just less luky and less skillfull then we were.
quote:
The same for USA. The terrain was poorly poulated, so they just were taking the "unused" terrains wondering what the **** Indians want. |
No. They put them in reservations, while we just build our cities and slowly assimilate locals.
quote:
Jakucja is indeed big -as all Russia, but it's the biggest of non-Russian autonomies not of all subjects. The biggest subject is Russian republic, even without autonomic regions. |
There is no "Russian republic" in Russian Federation. You are mistaken if you think that RF it's the same as SU.
Perhaps, I should explain our territorial devision. The Russian Federation consist of 89 subjects of Federation (on Russian - "subjectov Federacii"). Its like states in USA. The only difference is while USA have territorial devision, Russia have mixed devision- territorial and nationality. For example: Tatarstan, Bashkiria, Buriatia, etc - are subjects of Federation devided by nationality (this is the legacy of USSR, in times of SU they were an autonomies within Russian Soviet Federative Socialistic Republic), each one of them is the national republic or an "autonomy region".
St. Petersburg, Novosibirsk, Vladivostok etc. are subjects of Federation becouse of territorial devision- each one of them is the one big city and nearby territories ("oblast", "gubernia"). All of those subjects of Federation are equal by constitution. The Russian Federation consist of 89 of such Republics, Autonomy Regions, "Guberbii" and "Oblast". I hope I'll explain thing a bit.
quote:
And now compare the size of Tatarstan with what they had until they got under Russian power, for example. Or Kraj A?tajski witj republic of A?taj. |
You mean to compare the size of modern Tatarstan with the size of Golden Horde, how it was called in the past times? Why not with size of enitre Mongolian Empire?
quote:
Most of Syberian land is in Russian hands, not in the hands of natives. |
Becouse we are the natives. We are Sibiryaks!!!
quote:
And if those republics are really just in federation, not under Moscow's domination, why can't they get the independance some of them would like to have (Tchechenia)? It's not about what Tchechenians are or what they are doing now, but why Moscow didn't accept their souvereignity? |
Becouse we have right for it. It is said in our constitution that all subjects of Russian Federation is equal among each other and that Russia is undevidable.
quote:
Are You really so unaware what is happening there? In fact, I doubt if ?ukaszenka speaks Byelorussian. In eastern Ukraine, no-one can speak Ukrainian. Not even the mixed Ukrainian-Russian slang. |
Then on wich language they speak? How they understood their president? Any time when I see Kuchma in Ukraine, he always speak on Ukrainian.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:20
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Part two.
quote:
If they wanted or if they didn't. They didn't. Of course, they didn't want to be under Polish or Lithuanian rule too, but no-one wanted to destroy Nowogr?d from our side, Muscovians did that. |
Destroyed? I wasn't in aware that Novgorod is destroyed. You should inform Russian government that one of our oldest cities with uniqe historical monuments is destroyed and don't forget to inform citizens of Novgorod that their city is destroyed.
quote:
It's a problem with Russians. |
Ok. Whats your problem with Russians, exept that we are big, bad and ruthless?
quote:
Still, No-one in Russia resigns of using Russian. |
Why should we do this? It's an absurd.
quote:
Russia? Scientific? LOL. |
Yeah.  "Expantionist and scientific"!!!
Look how Civ3 describe us. 
quote:
The problem is that You travelled, and then "forgot your way home". |
Well, sh!t happens, time after time.
quote:
I doubt he could. But some think He thinks he could. |
The people who think so have really great imagination.
quote:
Oh, not everything in Russia in big!
Nie zapominaj tej historii wyjasniajacej dlaczego w Imperium Rosyjskim
wprowadzono szersze tory kolejowe. To tylko anegdotka, oczywiscie.
Przyprowadzono in?yniera przed oblicze cara, a ten pytal sie jak urzadzic ta
kolej. Pytal miedzy innymi;
"a czy tory powinny byc wezsze? Czy szersze?"
I car odpowiedzial; "A na chuja szersze!"
I wzieto jego wypowiedz doslownie. Dalsza czesc anegdotki mowi ze
robiono to podczas zimy i dlatego ta miara byla taka niewielka...
|
The only thing I understood from this anecdot is that tzar answered "A na huya?".
Could you translate it on English?
quote:
Phi. No, You'll beg for mercy, as primo, we can take oil from Norway, secundo, if You close the oilpipe for Poland, You'll have to close it for all the Europe, and not only will loose the only money You have, but also will unite against You all western powers. And You do suck western money. Now, under Putin, not as much as under Jelcyn (Yeltzin), though. |
You think Norwegians would deal with you?
Under Putin we only pay all those loans that our previous ****** ******* ******* ******** ****** ******* ******* ****** *** *** *** president took.
quote:
That's the way ?ukaszenka shows them, and I guess Russian tv shows them in the same way. That's the way that Soviet tv showed all that it didn't like I guess. And You haven't changed much since |
If I'll want to see it from another point of view, I'll just turn on BBC news. So, don't warry.
quote:
Territories of embassies are counted by international law as the souvereign part of the territory of a state to which the embassy belongs. By occupying embassies, ?ukaszenka violates foreign territory. |
What are you waiting for? Go get him!!!
quote:
He violated the constitution by changing it to what he likes. I guess the earlier situation and lack of that person is enough to say that something happened. "You can't be sure" but You can say it is highly possible. |
Since which times legal change of constitution is the crime? As far as I remember, the question about changes in constitution was
the subject of referendum in Byelorussia. Majoity of population voted for changes in constitution, so it's absolutely legal.
quote:
He also claims that every Pole borned on the ground that today belongs to Byelorussia is a Byelorussian and stuff and says some nice things about our state... Nothing really cruel, at least yet. I'm not quite sure how it is with the press. |
So, in other words he claimed that every Pole that was born or will born on territory of Byelorussia have or will have a Byelorussian citizenship? What a nightmare!!! You know Russians who live in Baltic states can only dream about such fate.
quote:
He manipulated the constitution so that he could stay in his seat two years longer, which was illegal |
The majority of population supported those changes in constitution, so I don't see any illegal in this.
quote:
He he he It's not our money, but please say it to the ones that actually give it to You. I hope they'll listen to You! |
You think my word were adressed to you? Sure they we adressed to our "freinds", who sleep and see dreams about how Russia will die.
quote:
Still, they give it to You because they are afriad that otherwise your situation would get so bad that some ultranationalists of yours could get the power and try to force ex-Soviet states back into your arms, not to mind Central Europe and to nuke the western part. |
Oh sure, nuck'em all.
What a BS scenario.
quote:
I don't agree with that. If You tried, You'd be smashed. I doubt all your territory can be captured, at least easily, but to kill some millions of your soldiers wouldn't be a hard task. |
You sounds like little furer write now. Great speech!!! [throw up] Some people could be proud of you. But I wish you to become a president of Poland and to try something of that kind. Only this time will kick your asses much, much harder then we did before.
quote:
Anyway it's You that deny pure facts, like those about domination of Russian language in Byelorussia and Eastern Ukraine. |
Ok I'm tired of this if you saying so then, YES IT'S DOMINATE THERE. So what? Feel happy now? I told you many times Ukrainians, Byelorussian and Russians are brothers and I'll hope that we'll live in one state again soon.
quote:
Do You know that joke of Radio Erewan?; |
You know about this radio?
I wasn't in aware that it could be recieved in Poland. Cool. 
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:20
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Damn, The post is too long. I can't edit it.
I forget to put this quote in part one:
quote:
It was no burglar. We had no more territorial aspirations, didn't anect anyone or demand new lands as You. We wanted to live in peace, alone. You didn't. And you forget that this money wasn't stolen, but part of much bigger money once stolen and later retrieved. |
Why not to start from "Adam and Eve" times, to find out true origin of those lands. Poland was devided "legaly" between 3 victorious countries. Does it mean "stolen"?
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Heresson
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of frogs
Jun 2000
time: 06:20
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Hi
"Only if this "someone" before invasion will say to his generals: "It's our historical mission to wipe out all those commies and to gain more living space for our growing "Uber nation"" ( by "commies" he didn't mean Chinese of course.)
Well, he had enough of land -in Poland, he didn't need much more.
"Greater Germany" of his never stretched on all (historical/before the war)
Poland even. He didn't say before the war that his goal was to fight commies.
Otherwise, he would have fought them, and he didn't...
He used to say it earlier, but his words didn't match his deeds.
"All depends with whom you signed agreements. As you said both of them (and btw, you too) weren't recognized as independant countries. So, you can't made any deal with official government of Ukraine, because it wasn't official, because it wasn't recognized as such one. Anyone could have ANY deal with ANY band of ANY morons who claimed themself as government of Ukraine.
Then, You couldn't be treated as gouverment of anything too.
"No, but they were representatives of 2 of 15 republics of SU. And SU claims that all nationalities within SU is equal, so there was no difference for him- are they majority of population or not. SU was their common home. And SU has full right to speak as defender of some of his nationalities.
No it has not.
It's a communistic state and anyway it forced -at least Ukrainians- under its own rule.
"3-mln army??? In 1919???
Yes.
"We were in the middle of civil war
I don't know if You noticed that, but usually countries have
bigger army if they are at war... Us too, we had either 0,6 or 1mln army as long as I remember.
"and half of the World was against us.
Ooh poor mother Russia, surrounded by those big bad bullies.
:If portray it as you helped your ally to resist Soviet agression, then I can also portray it as Soviets helped their ally to resist Polish intervention.
What ally? You claimed You are representative for Byelorussians, for Ukrainians, for Poles even,
we claimed we are representative for Poles and we didn't control Ukrainians.
"We provoked the war? We already have a dozen of wars and a great famine at this time. Why should we wanted another war? To make our life more extremal then it was? Sure, Russians love extreme, but everything has its limits.
You underestimate communistic thinking of that time.
"What's the differense where forces were? I'm trying to say that you gained independance only becouse Empire collapsed becouse of Bolsheviks and that you should thanks Bolsheviks for your independance.
No, tzarate would have been much weaker than new vital communistic state.
And in fact less agressive.
"No. They are not Slavs. We always fought with them.
We are Slavs and You always fought with Us, Ukrainians and Byelorussians...
"Perhaps Stalin was still mad that he was unable to capture Warsaw?
That's no excuse.
"Yes, it had to crush Poland, becouse at the first place Poland started war against Soviets.
Because You planned to destroy us.
"None chronical says that.
All.
"Yes it's a good solution if state has only two or maximum 3 nationalities.
Switzerland has four
What if hundreds like in SU? Can you imagine a state with hundred of official languages?
In fact, yes... he he he.
OK, at least several main languages should be official.
"Russia" has many languages, but is much much bigger than Switzerland.
Anyway who told You that it had to be one state?
OK, communistic doctrine saw it as the state that will lead world revolution...
But Russian was commonly known only in former RE, and Soviets wanted all the world.
Therefore, Russian official language was temporary, and Lenin knew that.
Soviets choosed the more or less logical solution. One (the language of majority of population) is language for use in every region and the local language for use in that local region. In every republics all signs were on two languages: Russian and the language of this Republic. I don't see any problem in that.
I see. Fellow Slavic languages, languages so similar to Russian, had to be weakened by that.
Then wich one?
Esperanto.
"You are mistaken about Bashkiria.
I'm not.
Blah, just don't tell me that Poland wasn't an agressively expansionistic. You were just less luky and less skillfull then we were.
oh we were, but we don't claim we weren't.
No. They put them in reservations, while we just build our cities and slowly assimilate locals.
Because it was easier for You, there was no such gap between You and the natives as between Americans
and You. Still, majority of Russian pop in Syberia came from Russia. Anyway, that's just a kind of colonialism.
There is no "Russian republic" in Russian Federation. You are mistaken if you think that RF it's the same as SU.
Perhaps, I should explain our territorial devision. The Russian Federation consist of 89 subjects of Federation (on Russian - "subjectov Federacii"). Its like states in USA. The only difference is while USA have territorial devision, Russia have mixed devision- territorial and nationality. For example: Tatarstan, Bashkiria, Buriatia, etc - are subjects of Federation devided by nationality (this is the legacy of USSR, in times of SU they were an autonomies within Russian Soviet Federative Socialistic Republic), each one of them is the national republic or an "autonomy region".
St. Petersburg, Novosibirsk, Vladivostok etc. are subjects of Federation becouse of territorial devision- each one of them is the one big city and nearby territories ("oblast", "gubernia"). All of those subjects of Federation are equal by constitution. The Russian Federation consist of 89 of such Republics, Autonomy Regions, "Guberbii" and "Oblast". I hope I'll explain thing a bit.
Yes, I'm no expert on Russian division, still, Russian-speaking subjects are much bigger than Jakut.
You mean to compare the size of modern Tatarstan with the size of Golden Horde, how it was called in the past times? Why not with size of enitre Mongolian Empire?
He he he Nice. Remember that YOU are Mongol Empire.
What did You do with Tatars of Crymea, hm?
Becouse we are the natives. We are Sibiryaks!!!
USA; "We are not English, we are Americans"
Perhaps, still You're not autochtons.
"Becouse we have right for it. It is said in our constitution that all subjects of Russian Federation is equal among each other and that Russia is undevidable.
And You call that "federation"
It's like early Roman state.
Not that You wer III Rome of course, Gliwice are.
"Then on wich language they speak? How they understood their president? Any time when I see Kuchma in Ukraine, he always speak on Ukrainian.
Yes, he had problems with that at the start. And yes, people don't understand him.
"Why not to start from "Adam and Eve" times, to find out true origin of those lands. Poland was devided "legaly" between 3 victorious countries. Does it mean "stolen"?
Serb Part two.
You make me scared. But I guess that in Russia
if the parliament worked surrounded by foreign army
You will accept the laws "your (independant) parliament" will give You then...
I guess that in Russia it is a normal thing to force someone to sth and then say he did it himself...
"Destroyed? I wasn't in aware that Novgorod is destroyed. You should inform Russian government that one of our oldest cities with uniqe historical monuments is destroyed and don't forget to inform citizens of Novgorod that their city is destroyed.
I ment the state of Novogrod... Poland-Lithuania wanted to protect its
independance against greedy hands of Muscovian bandits.
But in fact I remember that the city actually WAS burned by one of your tzars,
Iwan Gro?ny I believe...
"Ok. Whats your problem with Russians, exept that we are big, bad and ruthless?
They are Mongols!
"Why should we do this? It's an absurd.
Remember what it was about. Ukrainians and Byelorussians
largely lost the knowledge of their own language, while
Russians didn't. It means that USSR willingly or not turned
into a rusification machine.
"Yeah. "Expantionist and scientific"!!!
Look how Civ3 describe us.
Yes. Puszkin, wynalazca puszek....
Pieta Goras, wielki uczony rosyjski...
"Well, sh!t happens, time after time.
And You're occupying your former hotels...
"The people who think so have really great imagination.
Yes, I believe that. That was in exerts of Russian press...
The only thing I understood from this anecdot is that tzar answered "A na huya?".
Could you translate it on English?
There is a story why in Russia there are wider railtracks;
The main engineer came to the tzar and asked him about details
how Russian railtracks should look like;
if the should be wider for example.
The tzar replied then; "Na chuja szersze!" ("Why should be wider?" but "Wider on a penis"
in literate translation...)
And they took it literally... Just it was a strong Russian winter and that's why they
are only a bit wider...
"You think Norwegians would deal with you?
In fact they were very interested and now are angry as the new gouverment backed off
the deal.
"Under Putin we only pay all those loans that our previous ****** ******* ******* ******** ****** ******* ******* ****** *** *** *** president took.
And You need new loans to do that...
If I'll want to see it from another point of view, I'll just turn on BBC news. So, don't warry.
Oh, so Russian people in fact LIKE to be indoctrinised...
I'm sorry for You. Too much tzarate, too much USSR...
Your minds are destroyed.
What are you waiting for? Go get him!!!
Russians would treat it as Polish and Catholic imperialism
and attack on Holy Orthodox Land and would perhaps kill some
People in their place as the old Russian saying says;
"bij Polaka, ?yda i sobaka"...
"Since which times legal change of constitution is the crime? As far as I remember, the question about changes in constitution was the subject of referendum in Byelorussia. Majoity of population voted for changes in constitution, so it's absolutely legal.
The referendum was forged and it was illegal anyway.
So, in other words he claimed that every Pole that was born or will born on territory of Byelorussia have or will have a Byelorussian citizenship? What a nightmare!!! You know Russians who live in Baltic states can only dream about such fate.
No no no. It's not about citizenship.
"You think my word were adressed to you? Sure they we adressed to our "freinds", who sleep and see dreams about how Russia will die.
Oh no, our nationalists love Russia and think we should turn our back to the west.
No-one thinks about killing Russia. it's like with a giant dragon. You can kill it
but why? You won't be able to eat all the meat until it decays and then, You won't be
able to escape the odour, and it's better to feed it and get its eggs.
"Oh sure, nuck'em all.
What a BS scenario.
It is, isn't it!
No-one should be afraid of Russia.
Your nukes would probably explode before they were launched
"You sounds like little furer write now. Great speech!!!
Why thank You Serb. I'm glad You liked it and was convinced...
[throw up] Some people could be proud of you. But I wish you to become a president of Poland and to try something of that kind. Only this time will kick your asses much, much harder then we did before.
When before? Last time, in Warsaw battle, You were kicked in your asses...
I guess You like to be kicked there ;P
"Ok I'm tired of this if you saying so then, YES IT'S DOMINATE THERE. So what? Feel happy now? I told you many times Ukrainians, Byelorussian and Russians are brothers and I'll hope that we'll live in one state again soon.
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You are brothers, but it's a pathological family!
Only good old aunt Poland is quite normal.
Oh, w jezyku polskim jest duzy klopot z Armenia...
Tworzenie przymiotnika od Armenii lub nazwy narodowosci jest problemem, jako ze istnieje staropolska
wersja tej nazwy i nikt nie wie kiedy ktorej uzywac. To znaczy ja wiem, ale nikt nie chce mnie sluchac. Sadze ze bycmoze w polskiej wersji jest to "Radio Erewan" dlatego bo chciano uniknac tego problemu... Niemniej, wplatano sie w nastepny, bo istnieja dwie wersje nazwy stolicy Armenii, staropolska i nowa i ludzie na ogool tworza z nich
hybryde; zamiast Erewan lub Erywa? pisza i mowia Erewa?,
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:20
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Well, he had enough of land -in Poland, he didn't need much more. "Greater Germany" of his never stretched on all historical/before the war) Poland even. |
That's why after Poland he conquered almost entire Europe? You perfectly know that he wanted all World.
quote:
He didn't say before the war that his goal was to fight commies. Otherwise, he would have fought them, and he didn't... He used to say it earlier, but his words didn't match his deeds. |
1) He said this. I've read the memouirs one of his generals, where this general describe his talk with Hitler, when he just came to power. In this talk Hitler said that its historical mission to destroy commies.
2) He fought against them. Spain 1936. And btw, where do you think German communists ends their days? On the beach or perhaps in nazi death camps?
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Then, You couldn't be treated as gouverment of anything too. |
The Bolsheviks represented new government of Russia. Aside Poland and Ukraine Russia existed before revolution.
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No it has not. It's a communistic state and anyway it forced -at least Ukrainians- under its own rule. |
Or perhaps liberated from burjua slavery?
No. The SU started to increase its army in 30th and only in 1941 we reached the number of 3 millions troops.
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I don't know if You noticed that, but usually countries have bigger army if they are at war... Us too, we had either 0,6 or 1mln army as long as I remember. |
I don't know a single person who didn't noticed that.
But, as for 3 mln, I'm sure you are mistaken. It was much less and you forget about civil war. Half of population fought on other side of conflict.
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Ooh poor mother Russia, surrounded by those big bad bullies. |
Sure, biiiiiig and baaaaaaaaaad But we kicked theeeeeiiiiir asseeeeeeeeeess.
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You underestimate communistic thinking of that time. |
No. It is you who understimate the disasterous situation in Russia of that time.
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No, tzarate would have been much weaker than new vital communistic state. And in fact less agressive. |
So what? If bolsheviks didn't crushed tzariat, then perhaps you still were under rule of this tzariate. That's what I was tried to said. Is it to hard to agree that you owe you independance to Bolsheviks?
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We are Slavs and You always fought with Us, Ukrainians and Byelorussians... |
Becouse Ukrainians and Byelorussian are Slavs and Orthodox we consider that we are much closer to them then to Baltic states who are not Slavs and Catholics.
Perhaps.
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Because You planned to destroy us. |
Are you mediums? Are you able to see future?
NONE. Let's clear it out. The Rurik was the founder of first dynasty and prince of Novgorod. But he wasn't a founder of Kiev or Kiev's Rus.
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In fact, yes... he he he. OK, at least several main languages should be official. |
I see now. You have really great imagination. But tell me please your suggestions about which several languages exactly should have been an official in SU. All 15 languages of Soiet Socialistics Republic? Can you imagine country with 15 official languages? I can't, it will be real chaos in country if it will have 15 languages. If you'll say that it should be only 2 or 3, not all of them, then wich exactly and what about remaining languages? If f.e. it should have been Russian, Ukranian, Byelorussian and Georgian, then other republics would say: "WTF??? why their language is an official, but our not? It's descrimination!!!"
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"Russia" has many languages, but is much much bigger than Switzerland. Anyway who told You that it had to be one state? |
That's the problem, it is MUCH bigger. And why it shouldn't be the one state?
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OK, communistic doctrine saw it as the state that will lead world revolution... But Russian was commonly known only in former RE, and Soviets wanted all the world. |
Blah!!! It's an absurd, nonsense. Who do think populated SU? Martians??? Or perhaps former citizens of Russian Empire? The SU was the "child" of Russian Empire and I don't see ANY logical reason for any language to be an official language of SU exept Russian. As for world's revolution, perhaps if it happen, then humanity should have been speak on Esperanto or smt. But since it never happen everyone speak on their own languages. (or on broken English, like we are doing now)
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Therefore, Russian official language was temporary, and Lenin knew that. |
As far as I know, Esperanto wasn't one of nine languages which Lenin knew.
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I see. Fellow Slavic languages, languages so similar to Russian, had to be weakened by that. |
Grrrr.... Just tell me why it should be weakened? If people studied those languages in schools, talk on those languages with each other, read books etc, etc, etc.
It's a monkey language
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oh we were, but we don't claim we weren't. |
Good. Then stop f*cking my brains that you are holier then we are.
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Because it was easier for You, there was no such gap between You and the natives as between Americans and You. |
You know, one of the British former governors of India once said when it was in Russia- "Russians who unique ability to convert their former enemies to loyal freinds".
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Still, majority of Russian pop in Syberia came from Russia. Anyway, that's just a kind of colonialism. |
Call it anyhow, for me it's just colonization of empty space, spread of Chrisitanity and Russian culture.
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Yes, I'm no expert on Russian division, still, Russian-speaking subjects are much bigger than Jakut. |
 Again, Yakutsk autonomy region is the largest subject of Russian Federation. Just look at modern map of Russia. You may call it anyhow, but sure it is not "small, small republic" as you said.
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He he he Nice. Remember that YOU are Mongol Empire. |
At the same scale as you are.
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What did You do with Tatars of Crymea, hm? |
They were departeded in Siberia by Stalin's orders during WW2. They fought on Nazi side. Just don't tell me that it's not true. My Grandfuther fought in Sevastopol and I beleive him when he sayng that Crymian Tatars fought on Nazi side. And please don't
tell me that SU was the only country who departeted citizens during war.
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And You call that "federation" |
We call this RUSSIAN Federation. Are you sure that don't miss the concept of federation with concept of confederation. Anyhow, every country has right to be...(I don't know how to say "territorialnaya celostnost" on English), "undvidable", "to remain within it's borders", perhaps?
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It's like early Roman state. Not that You wer III Rome of course, Gliwice are. |
We are the Third Rome! Who the F*ck is Gliwice
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Yes, he had problems with that at the start. And yes, people don't understand him. |
Then tell me, why those people elected the president wich they are not able to understand? Or perhaps elections in Ukraine were forged too?
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You make me scared. But I guess that in Russia if the parliament worked surrounded by foreign army You will accept the laws "your (independant) parliament" will give You then... I guess that in Russia it is a normal thing to force someone to sth and then say he did it himself... |
Say ti to Germans and Austrians also. When I said "legaly", (don't you noticed this?) I've put word legaly in " ". I mean that in accordance with international agreement your country was devided between 3 countries. Have you choice or you haven't any choice to sign it, it's absolutely different story. BUT for 126 years part of Poland was part of Russian Emipre in accordance with international agreement signed on paper. I think it is much more "legal" for international laws, then your actions in 1919 when you haven't any "legal" right to took Western Ukraine and Western Byelorussia.
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I ment the state of Novogrod... Poland-Lithuania wanted to protect its independance against greedy hands of Muscovian bandits. But in fact I remember that the city actually WAS burned by one of your tzars, Iwan Gro?ny I believe... |
So, let's make it clear. You count this as an expantion. It means that nowdays huge Russia started as one single small city of Moscow. Fine. Then what about one of your previous speeches, where you was saying all the time that Russians has much bigger base for expantion then others, that we always was huge?
No more then you are.
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Remember what it was about. Ukrainians and Byelorussians largely lost the knowledge of their own language, while Russians didn't. It means that USSR willingly or not turned into a rusification machine. |
Look, why do you think that they lost their languages? Only becouse they are not speak on exactly the same language as they spoke 100 years ago? It's an absurd. Languages are changing all the times. Today Russians don't speak on the same language as we spoke before revolution. It was language with different alphabet, with different letters, it's very similar with modern language, but still it's different. And Russians of early 20th century didn't spoke on old Slav's language ("staro slavyanskom"). For me it's almost impossible to understand the meaning of old Slav's texts, I could understand single words, like when I read your posts on Polish, but it's hard to understand the entire text.
So, does it mean that Russians lost their language too?
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Yes. Puszkin, wynalazca puszek.... Pieta Goras, wielki uczony rosyjski... |
Yes, Pushkin is great artilery man, but I don't know the scientist Pieta Goras. Who is he?
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And You're occupying your former hotels... |
No, first we've build those hotels.
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Yes, I believe that. That was in exerts of Russian press... |
I'm not surprised. We have a lot of idiots among our press too.
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There is a story why in Russia there are wider railtracks;The main engineer came to the tzar and asked him about details how Russian railtracks should look like; if the should be wider for example. The tzar replied then; "Na chuja szersze!" ("Why should be wider?" but "Wider on a penis" in literate translation...) And they took it literally... Just it was a strong Russian winter and that's why they are only a bit wider... |
Sure this is an Anekdot. The real reason why our rail roads are wider is the Russian "smekalka". There is no word in English for "smekalka", it's Russian secret weapon. The most closer translation for "smekalka" is- "the ability to find an easy, unusual solutions for very hard problems". So, back to railroads. It were made wider, becouse in case of war enemy trains will not be able to move on them. At least until they change their wheels. And btw, when Hitler invaded USSR, it was very big problem for Germans. Another example of Russian "smekalka" is Russian mine launchers of WW2 period. The German mine launcers has 80mm caliber, while Russian desined their launchers with slightly big 82mm caliber. So, when war started Russians could use trophey German mines, while Germans couldn't use trophey Soviet mines.
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And You need new loans to do that... |
No we don't took new loans.
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Oh, so Russian people in fact LIKE to be indoctrinised... I'm sorry for You. Too much tzarate, too much USSR... Your minds are destroyed. |
I was trying to say that aside some of you, we have different sources of information. I see nothing wrong that I could see f.e. some conflicts from both sides.
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Russians would treat it as Polish and Catholic imperialism and attack on Holy Orthodox Land |
Sure. And sure we'll help our brothers to resist this agression.
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and would perhaps kill some People in their place as the old Russian saying says; "bij Polaka, ?yda i sobaka"... |
I actully never heard this saying before.
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The referendum was forged and it was illegal anyway. |
How a referendum could be an illegal? It's the wish of people. Any evidence that results were forged? Why it should be, when even you said that majority of population supports Luckashenko?
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No no no. It's not about citizenship. |
Then what this all about?
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Oh no, our nationalists love Russia and think we should turn our back to the west. No-one thinks about killing Russia. it's like with a giant dragon. You can kill it but why? You won't be able to eat all the meat until it decays and then, You won't be able to escape the odour, and it's better to feed it and get its eggs. |
You know, perhaps in your lore dragons are such a nice guys. In Russian lore dragons usaly demand the most beutyfull girl (well, you know for what ) and.... to eat something.
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No-one should be afraid of Russia. |
Amen.
(Exept of our enemies of course. )
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Your nukes would probably explode before they were launched |
Who needs to launch them? We just teleport them to target's destination. Or invent something new. Don't I told you about "smekalka" before?
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Why thank You Serb. I'm glad You liked it and was convinced... |
I was sarcastic.
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When before? Last time, in Warsaw battle, You were kicked in your asses... |
Last time when we fought in Warsaw (in 1945), we liberate your capital from Nazi, who easily kicked your asses in 1939. (Just don't start that it's only becouse of our invasion.)
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You are brothers, but it's a pathological family! Only good old aunt Poland is quite normal. |
Finnaly, you agreed that we are brothers.
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11-07-2002 15:21
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