10-07-2002 12:35									#1
	War Academy: Scenario of war w/ French after America: Plan Jackal Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Although I still want to look at some maps, it seems that America is presently is our best targe to go after first. I was wondering though if a war on France immediately after war on America. I'm not sure if this has already been discussed or not, but here is my idea:

Plan Jackal:

Yes another one of those names, and here it is in primitive form. It is my understanding that plan eagle follows a pan of attacking New York and Washington, then moving up afterwards to sweep Boston and then Philadelphia (location as of yet unknown). All the while I believe our cities will be building reinforcements.

If this is correct, and it goes well, here is my idea for Plan Jackal. First off America is completely annhilated within their valley (I don't consider pursuing them any father should they escape to be worthwhile). Now, France is to to the southwest of America and to the Northwest of Apolytonia, so I suggest leaving a small defensive occupying force in America and moving one large army to France's Northeastern border.

Now heres the part which I need to look at maps for: While the northern army is regrouping for the invasion, we declare war on them and move a small army of spearmen (mabee 3-4) and a catapault if possible into France and occupya mountain next too (if they have one) one of their southern cities.

Now, if my knowledge of AI tactics is correct France will send all of its offensive units to attack this army and will pop rush to make new units to attack them.

After France has wasted most of its offensive capabilites we send in the large Northern army and just mop them up as they travel south.

Now as of now there are three issues that need looking at as I see it:

1) I need to see the maps to see if the geography supports it, but if my memory is correct I think it shoud be fine. Minor point.

2) The French might have swordsmen by then, and I don't know if we will. If they do and we don't this plan in all probability cannot be carried out.

3) Plan Eagle is a good success and we annhiliate America with casualities. I have confidense Plan Eagle will work out fine, but there is a possiblitly of many casualties that cannot be replaced.

An alternative target could be Persia if they don't have iron or immortals. It would be tempting to knock them out early if this is the case (though I doubt it and think France is a better target at this time).

	10-07-2002 13:27									#2
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A few notes:

1) I do not recommend to annihilate the Americans, but only weaken. Let them build more cities and do more research for us. We succeed to exterminate them soon enough in the ADs. Another reason: It's hard to annihilate an AI civ so early, because they will respawn, if there's space available (should be plenty). Unless this option is turned off, that is.

2) Even if the French have Iron Working, they don't necessarily have Swordsmen. In the REX phase, the AIs build mainly settlers and defensive units, while a Swordsman is an offensive unit.

3) To open "War Academy: ..." threads, you shall join the Apolytonian War Academy. Everybody can discuss in those threads, but only staff members can start them. You can join in this thread.

	10-07-2002 15:08									#3
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Since we are very low on science and the French are more advanced than us, we would either have to stike immediately after the war with America, or, wait to build up our forces, as it is extremely likely that the French have iron. They will begin to build swordsmen as soon as we declare war, and it may be the case that we are driven back in the final stages. We need to anihilate either the French or the Americans since we need the land to expand on, but we should keep one to help us in the tech race etc.

	10-07-2002 15:19									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Will 5001 They will begin to build swordsmen as soon as we declare war, and it may be the case that we are driven back in the final stages.

For this reason, I would not sally right out against the French -- not until we've had a chance to
1) consolidate the territory we seize from the Americans (building roads to the new territory, and barracks in occupied cities);
2) have a chance to assemble a good sized stack of horsemen;
3) plant a city (or two?) of our own in the area if we have razed any American cities.

The French might not have swordsmen at the outset of a war, but they will build them soon. Our first strike has to wound them deeply. Sending in a stack or two of archers and spear sounds dangerously underpowered.

I realize the oscillating war/early rush strategy normally calls for a quick second strike at rival number 2. But it seems to me we will be in a different stage of the game by the time we launch.

	10-07-2002 15:25									#5
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Discussing war with the French after we take out the Americans is a bit premature. We might get into some trouble with the Americans, and there seems to be big support for Velīs brainchild oscillating war (not a big supporter myself). Also if we would succeed in taking out both the Americans and the French, without consolidating our gainst first. We would probably only make a power vacuum that we are not equipped to fulfill, giving the AI time to move in.

Also getting catapults to go anywhere when we are stuck in a jungle that makes the Amazon jealous, and donīt have Mapmaking is pretty much next to impossible.

	10-07-2002 21:53									#6
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we should regroup, colonize what used to be america, then attack egypt. we estimate large casualties in the assault on wahuington and new york. we wont have that much of an army left by the time we wipe out therest of the country, which is why we should concentrate on america first.

	10-07-2002 22:20									#7
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jdd, while in Mexico, your supposed to stay away from the water...attack ourselves? Seriously, though, we should produce a few settlers during the war, or near the end to grab the land that we take before any of the land grubbing ai's get to it. We also need to look into some buildings soon...

Are we going to palace jump to Washington? Or hope for a leader to build the FP? There is more potential with their land, but it would be useless with our capital located where it currently is.

	10-07-2002 22:36									#8
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whoops .... i meant france

	10-07-2002 23:28									#9
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Sorry, didn't realize I had to be member of war academy to start this thread, but I've signed up now.

The small southern army of spearmen does not have any need to attack, they're sole purpose is to fortify a mountain within French borders and draw as many of their offensive units towards them as possible. Casualties don't make a difference. It is my experience in similar situations when I've played that the computer that they will attack any unit within their border with as many offensive units as possible. This would leave Northern France signifigantly weaker.

	11-07-2002 12:57									#10
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I like the plan to pick on the French immediately after the Americans. Here's my way how this should be done:

- As soon as the post-Eagle buildup is finished (temple poprush, settler to consolidate), our productive cities (Apolyton and Termina) build reinforcements. They already have barracks. I expect losses of 2 spearmen (garrisons of our prey) and 50% of the archers (3).

- They depart when they are built, and meet the survivors of the American campaign at some tile near, but still outside of France. If the French build swordsmen or other dangerous units (which I doubt), our units will spot them in time and can react. Note, that with a good tactic (we strike, not they) a swordsman is not better than a spearman. I'm against catapults, mainly because they are not jungle going (need road) and because with their low hit quote they are almost useless.

- We attack their capital as soon as the force is complete. No sneak attack necessary. Same way as with the Americans, prune a bit, strip some techs, gold and a city for peace.

- Back to the Americans, rinse, repeat.

	11-07-2002 16:28									#11
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Looking over the map, we'd have to slog through a lot of jungle, and probably penetrate deep in to French territory, to get to Paris. I'm assuming we'd bypass Rheims, and try to get as close as possible to the capital before stepping over the pink border (which will, of course, have expanded by the time we would be ready to launch).
A southern approach looks promising, because we could take Orleans on the way and seize the horse tile. Unless that northern corridor between the Persian and French borders remains open, allowing our stack to get within 2 squares of Paris before crossing into pink.
The drawbacks/challenges remain daunting. The French may well have access to the iron behind them (due to boundary expansion) by the time we are on the march -- and because the iron is behind them, it would be difficult to cut it off by pillaging.
It sounds like a huge gamble. We'd be crossing a lot of ground without roads, with slow units, to get to an enemy with short supply lines and the raw material, at least, for putting superior units in the field.
On the other hand, we have the AI tendencies to work with (and few know those tendencies better than Sir Ralph).
I'm intrigued, but wary ....
(This will definitely be a debate that divides the builders from the warmongers! )

	11-07-2002 22:22									#12
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i think that instead of fortifying on a mountain in france, we should do the same thing we will have done against washington: surprise them. they dont have that many offensive units now. they will only build them once we go to war. if we surprise them, we can take out their industrial centers, and thus, they will be much weaker than if we just fortified...

	11-07-2002 22:34									#13
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Sir Ralph,

While I fully agree with most of your suggestion (I want to see more of Germany, they may be more attractive...), I do not think the general public does. Too many are for the complete destruction of America, which will also lead to more casualties. Perhaps we should be thinking of ways to convince them of pruning first?

jdd, it is unlikely that we will be able to strike at their capital directly on the first strike. The have two cities we would need to dance around, and a likely boarder expasion...Really need to re-assess everything when American war is over.

	11-07-2002 23:05									#14
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The time when we attack, America is expected to have 5 or 6 cities. It's highly unlikely to take them out with the force we send. And it's braindead, since they will respawn as far as there's space left at the map. Unless we want to fight a loooong war with one civ (which would not be to our benefit), we can't get rid of America. It would be even dangerous, since we neglect our own buildup and expansion. The public will accept this, after the war lasted a few turns and we run out of units, I'm pretty sure.

	11-07-2002 23:17									#15
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(Thinking out loud -- still undecided -- kind of wishy-washy)
On the one hand, if we spend too much time trying to wipe America out completely we risk draining resources while our other neighbors grow unchecked.
And it looks to me (at this point, without having seen enough territory to be sure) that the French are going to get their hands on iron that we will need. If we wait too long, and France grows into a strong rival, it's going to get harder and harder to break through that line of cities to get to the iron behind them.
On the other hand, a weakened America might offer the most vulnerable, and hence the most cheaply acquired, territory and cities (since our initial strike will have weakened them).

Question: can we play "chase the palace" indefinitely -- meaning, take America's capital in succession (so that we would capture cities, rather than autorazing them)? I gather a city has to have culture in order to survive capture, and that a palace confers culture. So an enemy capital always survives capture, right?

	12-07-2002 13:52									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Robber Baron On the one hand, if we spend too much time trying to wipe America out completely we risk draining resources while our other neighbors grow unchecked.

Yes, and this is very dangerous.

quote: And it looks to me (at this point, without having seen enough territory to be sure) that the French are going to get their hands on iron that we will need. If we wait too long, and France grows into a strong rival, it's going to get harder and harder to break through that line of cities to get to the iron behind them.

True.

quote: Question: can we play "chase the palace" indefinitely -- meaning, take America's capital in succession (so that we would capture cities, rather than autorazing them)? I gather a city has to have culture in order to survive capture, and that a palace confers culture. So an enemy capital always survives capture, right?

It must have size 2 either by population or by culture. The latter means, it must have at least once expanded. Each capital meets this point after being capital for 10 turns (the Palace yields 1 culture). So the answer is: yes, as long as you give the new capital time to expand.

	12-07-2002 15:32									#17
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An oscillating war faces the same dangers of failure as an all-out war, the first wave could get crushed very unlikely but maybe. Furthermore it constantly aggravates not one, but many of your neighbours (French and Americans). This of course will increase the chances of a two-front war. While I believe that the Apolyton warriors will make us proud and that UberKraux is a somewhat competant warlord, we do not want to fight the French and the Americans at the same time. With their production bonuses and our lousy starting position, it would surely be the eqvivalent of Heimdall blowing on his horn.

	12-07-2002 15:49									#18
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Not if we hit the Americans so severely, that they won't be able to strike for long. And that they need their full 20 turns of peace to recover from the blow and may be to build 1-2 settlers, to give our armies new food.

Imagine, they have 5 cities, and we 4, when we attack. After taking 1 city, razing 1 and getting 1 for peace (thats the average outcome of an archer rush), they have 2 cities left. We have 6, and get 2 quick settlers, makes 8 cities. Their cities are weakened from poprushing (the AI loves it!) and won't produce settlers so quick. Sometimes it's even wise, to wait more than 20 turns in order to preserve the AI's ability to build your future cities.

After an AI civ is weakened, it is no more dangerous. Just don't let it grow and prune it again. Finish it, when it ceases to give you good stuff for peace.

	12-07-2002 16:44									#19
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So we will use this tactics to carve ourselves into the empires of the French and the Americans while filling up the backlands with the cities of our own making. Sounds very nice actually.

Sir Ralph you are so practical that it almost gives a man the shivers.

	12-07-2002 17:45									#20
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My concern on this tactic is that some DIA members have stated in their campaigns that they want to destroy America, and then make a defensive army...

I am not sure if that is a personal view or not, but many seem to be thinking the same. Even if we only prune America, which I am adamant about, how will we convince them to declare war on another rival (I still think Germany may be better, but am compiling a reason why at the moment) within a reasonable time to make the attack effective? Do we rely on not having enough terrain? Will they finally see? Once seeing this in action, they may change their minds...

	12-07-2002 18:07									#21
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quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx My concern on this tactic is that some DIA members have stated in their campaigns that they want to destroy America, and then make a defensive army...

I don't give much on statements like this. Even the DIA will acknowledge, that even including the American terrain we'll have by far not enough land for a huge map. Far from this, I don't support any of these parties, I prefer the best of both worlds.

quote: Even if we only prune America, which I am adamant about, how will we convince them to declare war on another rival (I still think Germany may be better, but am compiling a reason why at the moment) within a reasonable time to make the attack effective?

Ask them "Do you consider us to have enough land and enough resource-promising area to get through the whole game?" They will quickly run out of arguments.

Btw: Germany is too far for footsoldiers. Better wait for WCs/Horsemen or even Knights. They have to go till the industrial age, or does anyone want Panzers at our doorsteps?

	12-07-2002 18:24									#22
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I thought I only counted about 4 more tiles to Germany than France from where the survivors of the American war will be, perhaps I was wrong. I was thinking along the lines, take Washington, raze NY, sue for Boston (which may very well be roaded to by then) once we have the road to NY, we would have road right up next to Germany. I am also a bit concerned of France either getting swordsmen, or getting Greece involved. Though, with Hamburg by the mountains, you can bet they also have Iron somewhere. I need to get home and look at the save more closely.

	12-07-2002 19:05									#23
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Well, we need to know more about German territory and vicinity, of course, before deciding for sure ....
But PRELIMINARY indications still point to France, IMNSHO -- to acquire wines and iron. The Germans don't have iron -- at least yet (or at least, not yet roaded in to a city).

	12-07-2002 19:17									#24
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Pops gotta swing his vote with the Robber Baron, even though he is an immoral bloodsucking scoundrel. Also the proximity of the French and the Americans must make them the first targets, they are the only ones that could possibly choke the peninsula. There would also be the possibiliy of making the forbidden palace in-between the French and the Americans, giving us a nice center position if we had both the Yanks and the frenchies.

	12-07-2002 19:24									#25
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Good points, I'll concede the fact. Greece may be choking our expansion between america and france though...

	12-07-2002 19:55									#26
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quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx I thought I only counted about 4 more tiles to Germany than France from where the survivors of the American war will be, perhaps I was wrong. I was thinking along the lines, take Washington, raze NY, sue for Boston (which may very well be roaded to by then) once we have the road to NY, we would have road right up next to Germany. I am also a bit concerned of France either getting swordsmen, or getting Greece involved. Though, with Hamburg by the mountains, you can bet they also have Iron somewhere. I need to get home and look at the save more closely.

I think you are right with the tile count. But, France is already pretty far, no need to go still farther with footsoldiers. Leave a bit work for our WCs/Horsemen and Knights . I hope after the 1st war the road out of the jungle will be built. All we have to secure in this stage of the game, is horses and iron. Horses we have, they never deplete. 2 iron sources would be nice. I'm pretty sure, France and America both have one.

	12-07-2002 20:03									#27
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Sir Ralph already planning to do once we reach the medieaval ages are you. The strategic resourcess are very important, but we must not forget luxury, at emperor level they are pretty important. Therefore they must build a road towards America once we have, ehhmm..... done something to them, need those dyes. That also a reason for why a think hitting the French first would be better, they have strategic resourcess and luxury, wines.

	12-07-2002 20:05									#28
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I didn't notice one in America...My thought on Germany was that the actual road we were building would be closer to Germany, therefore closer/faster to get to...Plus, unless I am mistaken, there is evidence that Germany has been at war. There is a road to nowhere, a destroyed city? That may have been Persia, though, or even from my last game...can't remember at this point. We will know for sure by the end of American war...

	12-07-2002 20:11									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Papa Chubby ... even though he is an immoral bloodsucking scoundrel...

Immoral? Fair enough.
Bloodsucking. Well, yeah.
But "scoundrel"?!?!? Sir, I protest!!

	12-07-2002 20:20									#30
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quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx I didn't notice one in America

Neither did I. But we haven't discovered all of America yet.