10-07-2002 16:40									#1
	Strategy help Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

As a newbie, I struggle with strategy. In the early game I typically found a city, build a warrior (to explore with), then a defender and then a settler. Of course, circumstances sometimes dictate otherwise but that's the custom I follow. Should I be building a barracks in all or most cities before the defender (or warrior)? I know many here are opposed to going after Sun's, which would mean building barracks to get vet units.

As for research, I go after Monarchy ASAP and once I get it I go after pottery (if I didn't start the game with it). I can usually still build HG first (which is the first wonder I try to get) and will also try to build Pyramids too. If the AI beats me to Pyramids, I often will go after the Great Wall instead. Is this sound practice?

At what point do I turn down my science rate and increase the luxury rate? If I get into an early war, before Mike's, and am too busy building war units to build temples, I will try and keep folks happy by bumping the lux rate to 10 or 20%. Otherwise, if people are happy, I leave it alone and have science set to 50-60%. I rather imagine that this is not preferred by smart Civ players, so please straighten me out.

I prefer going fundy and winning by conquest, but if I am well ahead in technology I sometimes switch to democracy and try to launch a ship (but that is rare as those games take longer and I tend to grow bored with them). Besides, fundy allows me to be the wealthiest tribe and have the strongest army. Being in that position and winning by conquest is more fun to me than winning by spaceship.

	10-07-2002 21:01									#2
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Early in the game I concentrate on nothing but building cities and making sure roads(that can be transformed to railroad later) connect them. Once a city is built I then build a settler, after a settler a warrior to protect and then on to a temple. I build the cities as close together as I can, plus concentrating on mining and irrigation. Depending on how the rest of the game goes depends on what I do after that. I don’t know if this is correct but it seems to work ok.

	10-07-2002 21:16									#3
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Maybe I'm just being stupid but I don't like to defend cities with warriors (phalanx or better is my choice). And I also like to get tipping huts and find out what's around me ASAP, so I like to send a few warriors out "on patrol" for those things. I also normally wait until after I have monarchy (or later) until I begin building more settlers to build roads, irrigate, etc.

I'm curious as to how others do it and what they recommend because it's possible I'm going about it all wrong. Thanks for the reply Unix.

	10-07-2002 21:29									#4
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There was a thread about the 'warrior vs. phalanx as first unit' argument, recently.

Basically the warrior serves 2 purposes - it's faster, and early in the game you want to expand quickly. The warrior lets you start a settler sooner.

Plus, 2 warriors can be built in the time of one phalanx. For martial law purposes (especially in deity) this can be crucial. A new city needs a warrior for martial law at size 2, and sometimes at size 1, depending on the # of cities you have. It's irritating to have a city go into disorder because the phalanx wasn't built before size 2. This happens much less when building warriors.

Of course the phalanx defends better... so it's a bit of a gamble to build warriors if there are bad guys around. In my very first cities I'll build warriors, because barbs don't appear for the first few turns, AI civs are probably too far away to attack, and huts will only produce one barb at a time. Later on, there's more of a need for the phalanx for defense.

STYOM

	10-07-2002 23:04									#5
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In the early game if I need something better than warriors it's usually horsemen. During this time the main problem is barb archers. These units attack at 3 but only defend at 1...so strike first with a horsie before they do any damage.

----------------

SG(2)

	10-07-2002 23:13									#6
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Civ against the AI embodies the old saw "the best defense is a good offense". Build roads, as Unix said, and build a handful of horsemen (one for every 2-3 cities should be enough). You can see barbs coming from a long way off if you explore systematically, so you have plenty of time to move your forces into position to intercept them. Your warriors should never have to defend, so building a phalanx is a waste of shields. If you build enough cities and units, the AIs will spend the whole game cowering in fear and never dare to attack you.

If you're looking for a fast start, your early builds should be exclusively warriors, horses, and settlers. Each settler roads a couple squares and flops down a new city. Each city produces military units while it's waiting to grow big enough to produce a settler.

	10-07-2002 23:29									#7
	Re: Strategy help Support Apolyton

I guess I didn't really answer the questions:

quote: Originally posted by El Civ As a newbie, I struggle with strategy. In the early game I typically found a city, build a warrior (to explore with), then a defender and then a settler. Of course, circumstances sometimes dictate otherwise but that's the custom I follow. Should I be building a barracks in all or most cities before the defender (or warrior)?

No. As mentioned above, your early troops are just there to police your own citizens. Build lots and lots of settlers instead of barracks. You can build barracks when you run out of room to expand, or when you decide to switch into conquest mode. I am not one of those who doesn't favor the War Academy, by the way. Maintenance-free barracks in all cities are a huge boost to the warmonger.

quote: As for research, I go after Monarchy ASAP and once I get it I go after pottery (if I didn't start the game with it). I can usually still build HG first (which is the first wonder I try to get) and will also try to build Pyramids too. If the AI beats me to Pyramids, I often will go after the Great Wall instead. Is this sound practice?

The great wall isn't really necessary against the AI. HG is my favorite wonder, Pyramids are somewhere down in the middle of the pack.

quote: At what point do I turn down my science rate and increase the luxury rate?

Only if you're trying to generate extra arrows through We Love the King day. With the Gardens, you shouldn't have any happiness problems. Just beeline your way to the Statue of Liberty, then your happiness problems are really over.

quote: I prefer going fundy and winning by conquest, but if I am well ahead in technology I sometimes switch to democracy and try to launch a ship (but that is rare as those games take longer and I tend to grow bored with them). Besides, fundy allows me to be the wealthiest tribe and have the strongest army. Being in that position and winning by conquest is more fun to me than winning by spaceship.

I find conquest games tend to take longer than spaceship games, because it takes so long to move all the units around and stomp all those AI cities. But I've never found much satisfaction in a spaceship win.

	10-07-2002 23:46									#8
	Thanks all, keep 'em coming Full PM-box? Change here!

I appreciate the helpful advice.

Dave said:

quote: I find conquest games tend to take longer than spaceship games, because it takes so long to move all the units around and stomp all those AI cities. But I've never found much satisfaction in a spaceship win.

Spaceship wins most likely take so long for me because I am not wise in the ways of fine tuning my cities and production (i.e. gaining more arrows, shields, etc.), nor am I as economical as I could be in other areas (such as having a phalanx in each city at the beginning of the game).

The advice you all are giving is the stuff I'm looking for. Thanks and please continue the lesson. I want to graduate with honors

I wonder if the Gits are regretting their invite to me in their next succession game yet

	11-07-2002 00:12									#9
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Invite - what invite?



Of course not! One thing that we all have in common (Except Eyes who was simply born omniscient) is that we all have to learn - this wonderful game si so deep that we are all still learning - it would cease to be so addictive if we actually knew everything...

SG[1]

	11-07-2002 04:15									#10
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warriors and horses all the way...... with leos and a few military techs along the way you can save yourself thousands of gc's

dont forget to pick up suns along the way.....

HG and the SSC to fuel your empire......on anything less than a large map both of these are not necessary.

lighthouse and magellans can wreak havoc and make a foothold on the oppositions empire a certainty

	11-07-2002 06:29									#11
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DaveV has the same approach as me. I will space them so they don't overlap much as a rule. I explore some to find a good capitol site. It must have some trade potential and some shield potential. I get 4 cities down asap. I stay at size 4 (or 5 on a large map) intil monarchy. Then I expand to 13 or so. The capitol starts a wonder early(lookong for HG), the others build settlers and roads to the capitol.
After the first city, my explorers almost never tip huts. A lot of good can come from huts, but my exploring units have been wiped out too many times. Instead I build a city near them, then when I tip them, I get no bad things. --patience--
Horsemen, and an attacking defense is the only way to go against barbs. I like great wall which lets me expand.

	11-07-2002 10:33									#12
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Capital: Warrior, Warrior, (temple), Wonder (for HG)
Others: Warrior, Settler, Settler, Settler, Settler ...
after the HG sometimes in a high food city Settler before Warrior
and a Horse here and there for Barb defence

SG[1]

	11-07-2002 13:44									#13
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I have not real detailled strategy for the beginning usually, I build a defend in a new city then a setter to explore and build roads to connect cities and to build new cities I do not bother with iriatting until farmland!

	11-07-2002 15:24									#14
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quote: Originally posted by James Adams I do not bother with iriatting until farmland!

Irritating...perhaps

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SG(2)

	11-07-2002 16:47									#15
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quote: [SIZE=1] One thing that we all have in common (Except Eyes who was simply born omniscient) is that we all have to learn - this wonderful game si so deep that we are all still learning - it would cease to be so addictive if we actually knew everything... SG[1]

Isn't Eyes the guy who no one here likes because he claims to be the best ever at Civ? At any rate, SG[1], have you and SG(2) already decided upon the parameters of your succession game? If you can tell me what level and tribe I'll begin a practice game to get prepared as best I can.

	11-07-2002 19:07									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by El Civ Isn't Eyes the guy who no one here likes because he claims to be the best ever at Civ?

So he says. His proof is that in every duel he's played and not abruptly quit, he's won. The dislike is more that his omniscience excludes anything related to social skills.

	11-07-2002 19:09									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq So he says. His proof is that in every duel he's played and not abruptly quit, he's won. The dislike is more that his omniscience excludes anything related to social skills.

Yes, I remember seeing him troll the boards and inflame nearly everyone there. I also noticed there was someone doing the same thing in the MP board for Civ 2...is it the same guy?

	11-07-2002 20:27									#18
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El Civ

First choice when you start a game: shall I settle or shall I wander and tip huts?
Have you ever tried wandering?
If not, try it once (remembering that many people have won the game without settling, only destroying their foes with the NON units they found in huts).
It will teach you that settling at once is not compulsory (especially if you start on rough terrain).
On the other hand, remember that the main drawback with wandering is when you get unwanted techs, because if you get several it can really slow down your research later on.

	11-07-2002 21:29									#19
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El Civ, try using communism instead of fundy in your conquests. You will need to mind your economy more in order to increase the cash flow. You get plenty of free units (3 per city), but not the flood of bad guys fundy gives you. Once you get good at that, try representative gov't and conquest.

Using different strategies proves useful for all strategies you employ - you learn various elements of the game a bit better, and can carry those over to improve the strategy you prefer. Have fun!

	11-07-2002 21:38									#20
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For starting strategy, your approach is not at all bad. Rushing to monarchy is a very common approach. What follows is usually where players diverge.

Most players would recommend Trade as the next most important tech goal. Caravans bring you gold, science beakers, and trade arrows. They are key to speeding up science, and boost your income. Establish trade routes in your cities!

Preferred wonders vary as much as playing styles. Few people want the Pyramids or Great Wall in single player mode. Michaelangelo's Chapel is probably the most powerful wonder - tho some would argue for Leo's Workshop or others. Sun Tzu's is great, imho.

You really don't need barracks in every city. Often it is sufficient to have them in just a few cities that produce many shields (and thus units). These can be sent about and rehomed to other cities.

	11-07-2002 22:14									#21
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq [/SIZE] Most players would recommend Trade as the next most important tech goal. Caravans bring you gold, science beakers, and trade arrows. They are key to speeding up science, and boost your income. Establish trade routes in your cities!

Here is another area where I am likely weak. I have always believed that trading with other civs increases revenue per trade. I also believed that the further a caravan/freight has to travel the more revenue. Are these correct?

quote: Preferred wonders vary as much as playing styles. Few people want the Pyramids or Great Wall in single player mode. Michaelangelo's Chapel is probably the most powerful wonder - tho some would argue for Leo's Workshop or others. Sun Tzu's is great, imho.

Until recently I always tried to get Sun's, but then I read a few posts where it was besmirched as a waste of shields. I do always try for Mikes as it is quite beneficial.

quote: You really don't need barracks in every city. Often it is sufficient to have them in just a few cities that produce many shields (and thus units). These can be sent about and rehomed to other cities.

Ah, the old rehoming trick
These are very good tips. I once printed off a large compilation someone had put together on an array of Civ related topics but it's gone now (we just moved). I never read it in-depth and the help I'm getting here is fantastic. I've even learned what a git is!

	11-07-2002 22:30									#22
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quote: Originally posted by El Civ I've even learned what a git is!

The start of all knowledge ...

SG[1] - well oiled after lunch!

	11-07-2002 23:46									#23
	Got spare money?

Well oiled after lunch? You must have a great job that allows you to get half in the bag after lunch. Wherever you work....are they hiring?

	12-07-2002 00:37									#24
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: I have always believed that trading with other civs increases revenue per trade. I also believed that the further a caravan/freight has to travel the more revenue. Are these correct?

Yes, both correct. The bonus is greater when you trade with a civ other than your own, and it's greater when the receiving city (yours or a different civ) is on a different land mass.

quote: Until recently I always tried to get Sun's, but then I read a few posts where it was besmirched as a waste of shields.

That's a matter of opinion and style of play. Sun's isn't one of my top priorities but I very much like to have it for conquest games, for a couple reasons: 1. Saves the cost of building and paying maintenance for barracks. 2. Re-establishes the vet status of units that are upgraded with Leo's. (You're probably aware that a vet phalanx, for example, will become a "green" musketeer after a Leo's upgrade. If you've got Sun's, one combat will make it vet again. Barracks won't do that.) 3. Don't have to rebuild barracks after they become obsolete by technology advances. (And second and third generation barracks have a higher maintenance cost -- 2 and 3 gold -- so aren't covered by Adam Smith's.)

	12-07-2002 01:28									#25
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Another SunTzu bonus: the barracks count in newly conquered cities, too. The turn after you conquer, everybody is full strength again, instead of waiting # turns.

	12-07-2002 07:58									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq Another SunTzu bonus: the barracks count in newly conquered cities, too. The turn after you conquer, everybody is full strength again, instead of waiting # turns.

Sun Tzu awards veteran status to all newly built land units and makes any unit a vet after combat. It does not give every city the healing power of the barracks. Alas Marquis, that's another 40 shields away.

Typically, a recently captured city will be in a state of disorder which will not allow you to rush buy any new military units. However, there are two things you can do in this situation and it helps to be rich!

1) Rush build a city improvement like a granary, then take the 30 shield hit to make it a musketeer.

2) Rush build the barracks for healing in the year of conquest. The injured troops will not be fit the following year but will recover the year after that.

If the invasion force has sailed to another continent it's worth including a caravan if room on the ship. Bang in the trade before you conquer so boosting your treasury for emergencies.

---------------------

SG(2)

	12-07-2002 23:27									#27
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D'oh!! I have now begun two games on emperor and have run into the same problem with both. What am I doing wrong?

I begin by founding my city and building a warrior. I then build at least one, preferably two, settlers from my capital. I build a second and third city afterward, with each one building a warrior. After the warrior each city builds a settler and the process begets itself anew. Following the warrior in my early cities I try to build a wonder in 1 (HG) and a horse or two in others (at this point I have 4-5 cities). Of course, my domestic advisor is recommending barracks and temples at this point.

What is happening is that the AI civs are beating me to every wonder, sending a representative to brag about the tech they just obtained and/or sending 2-3 horses and a couple of cats to the doorstep of one of my cities, demanding gold to not destroy me. Sigh. I am way behind in technology, can't build a wonder to save my backside and have not yet had time to build anything resembling a military. In one game I hadn't even reached monarchy yet and one AI civ began building SunTzu's and another (the stinkin' Greeks, who sought my demise) sent a horse to one of my cities to brag about having discovered philosophy (I think it was).

	13-07-2002 07:29									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits Sun Tzu awards veteran status to all newly built land units and makes any unit a vet after combat. It does not give every city the healing power of the barracks.

Has Civ3 tainted my brain?

	13-07-2002 08:31									#29
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quote: Originally posted by El Civ D'oh!! I have now begun two games on emperor and have run into the same problem with both. What am I doing wrong?

What you're saying sounds good. Warriors, and then Settlers, and then more Settlers. On Emperor the lessened unhappiness should make quick expansion easier than on Deity. If you're going to build a lot of cities, build ones with access to things like rivered forests or specials (especially whales/silk) and work those specials.

Two bits of quick advice. First, where are you putting your workers - are you working a high trade square, high food square, or high shield square? DaveV (I think) suggests in the GL that you should maximize food production in size 1 cities, and then maximize shields when you get to size 2. This works well for me (I only learned this nuance recently!) - grow the city as fast as you can and then keep production high to pump out Settlers... and...

Second - ...Caravans! If you're losing wonder races, then you may need to add Caravans to your wonder building efforts. I usually make Trade the #2 priority to research, after Monarchy. Caravans for wonder building are crucial in the early part of the game, IMO. On the way to Monarchy you should pick up Bronze Working or Pottery so you can start a wonder after there are a few cities down. Then, build Caravans mixed in with Settlers to keep a balance between growth and wonder production.

Oh - one last thought - if the AI bullies you and taunts you, give in (if you aren't already). Gift to them. See if you can trade for something useful, or beg for money or science. It really does work.

STYOM

	13-07-2002 08:34									#30
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man Oh - one last thought - if the AI bullies you and taunts you, give in (if you aren't already). Gift to them. See if you can trade for something useful, or beg for money or science. It really does work. STYOM

This presupposes that you haven't sneak attacked anyone. It pays to be nice in the early part of the game. If you betray one AI civ, they'll all hate you. Time enough for treachery later, when you're strong.

This also presupposes 2.4.2. In MGE/ToT, the AI is much harder to make nice with.