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Sprayber
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Dixie
Oct 2000
time: 23:20
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This whole dispute reminds me of another set of bickering children.
http://www-cgi.cnn.com/WORLD/9601/t...greece_dispute/
quote:
January 30, 1996
Web posted at: 11:20 a.m. EST (1620 GMT)
ATHENS, Greece (CNN) -- Greek and Turkish naval forces shadowed each other in the eastern Aegean Sea Tuesday, as conflicting claims intensified between the governments over an unpopulated 10-acre islet.
The two countries called on each other to pull back rival warships around the disputed territory.
In Ankara, the Greek ambassador was summoned to the foreign ministry where Turkey called "for the immediate withdrawal of Greek ships" from around the tiny rock island.
In Athens, Defense Minister Gerassimos Arsenis said, "We do not want escalation of the crisis. If the other side is sincere and also wants de-escalation, it should remove its (military) presence from the area, from our waters, from our airspace."
There were reports that the entire Greek fleet was ordered to sail toward the Dodecanese island chain in the eastern Aegean, where the islet is located. But, the Defense Ministry press office would only say that some ships were in the area. Air force jets were ready to take off within two minutes, if necessary, military sources said.
Arsenis said a Turkish frigate and helicopter had violated Greek air and sea space early Tuesday around the islet, which Greece calls Imia and Turkey calls Kardak. Greek forces warned the frigate to turn back, Arsenis said. No warning shots were fired.
"The islet of Imia is Greek and it is the responsibility of the armed forces to defend Greek territory, and they are in a position to defend it," Arsenis said.
On Monday, Greek Premier Costas Simitis warned Turkey that Greece would not tolerate questioning of its sovereign rights. Turkish Prime Minister Tansu Ciller responded similarly, demanding that Greek forces be withdrawn and that the Greek flag be taken down from the island.
"Turkey will by no means give up its sovereignty rights," Ciller said. "It is part of Turkey's territory. . . . We will put our full decisiveness behind it."
The crisis between the two NATO allies appears to be their worst since 1987 when they nearly went to war after Turkey tried to send an oil-drilling ship into disputed waters in the Aegean.
In 1974, the two sides narrowly escaped another clash after Turkey invaded and occupied the northern part of Cyprus, an independent Mediterranean island populated by people of Turkish and Greek descent.
The islet is made up of two barren rocks spanning 10 acres. The conflicting claims emerged late last month after a Turkish ship ran aground near the islet and refused assistance from the Greek coast guard, saying it was on Turkish territory.
The Turkish government backed the ship's claim that the island was Turkish. The Greeks promptly gave notice that the island was theirs.
The low-level dispute remained a diplomatic one for nearly a month. But last Wednesday, a private Greek television station, Antenna TV, reported on the situation, giving rise to news stories in the Greek media about Turkish commandos invading Greece.
Turkey has called for a dialogue to settle the issue, and the broader question of air and sea rights. Greece says there is nothing to discuss and that the islet belongs to it under a 1947 convention in which Italy ceded the Dodecanese islands to Greece. Italy had taken them from Turkey under an agreement in 1932.
The islet is about 12 miles from the Greek island of Kalimnos and nearly four miles off the Turkish coast. |
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:20
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quote:
Originally posted by faded glory
I dont know much about the nation. Other than the island disputes. Ive heard its very liberal for that part of the world. Again, I doubt it will lead to war. Im not laughing either, its a serouis matter. But these things happen, wars happen, disputes happen. |
Indeed, wars happen. But I would be very sorry if war breaks out, I made a lot of friends there when I visited the country. And as most of them are Saharaoui, I know they will feel it hardest of all inhabitants.
Just some background info: the current king Hassan II has only been king for a few years now, after his father Mohammed VI died. Most people see his reign as a mixed blessing, he did many things to battle corruption and encourage tourism (a great deal of the nation's income comes from 'European' Moroccans visiting their mother country each summer). But so far, he hasn't got any military conquests on his curriculum. His father conquered the Western Sahara, and that did bring many lucrative deals with a.o. the US due to rich mineral deposits, the Sahara is the largest phosphate mine of the world.
It would be a logical move of him to consolidate his position as a king by conquering some territory, and there are really only two options for this: Algeria or the Spanish enclaves. The Spanish enclaves are very symbolic, so could be target of choice, and would probably be an easier target then Algeria, as that country is very fundamentalistic and military. But of course he should be careful not to get the EU into the conflict, as those countries are the biggest trade partners of Morocco.
Hassan could use the new inforced immigration policy of the EU as a cover up, like they were claiming they needed Perejil for battling illegal immegration. After all, Ceuta is known as one of the main entry points into the EU for all African immigrants, making it Moroccan would solve that problem (or at least shift the geographical position of immegration) So he could gain two things at once: the liking of his people because he finally removed the thorn that has been bothering them since independance, while gaining the favor of the EU because of his 'active immegration war'. I guess Spain is going to get it hard defending its position, even if Ceuta has been Spanish territory for centuries.
DeepO
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Victor Galis
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in exile
Jul 1999
time: 00:20
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This reminds me of act IV scene 4 from Hamlet...
quote:
Captain
Truly to speak, and with no addition,
We go to gain a little patch of ground
That hath in it no profit but the name.
To pay five ducats, five, I would not farm it;
Nor will it yield to Norway or the Pole
A ranker rate, should it be sold in fee.
HAMLET
Why, then the Polack never will defend it.
Captain
Yes, it is already garrison'd.
HAMLET
Two thousand souls and twenty thousand ducats
Will not debate the question of this straw:
This is the imposthume of much wealth and peace,
That inward breaks, and shows no cause without
Why the man dies. I humbly thank you, sir. |
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Estilpón
 are you sure?
The immigrants arrive to Spain crossing the sea by small boats, named 'pateras', not across Ceuta...
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I'm sorry I was not very clear, there is a difference between the two. Ceuta is known to other European countries as a choke point, I thought I heard it had the most asylum requests of all European cities. (Was on the Belgian news when the European top on immigration was happening) Even if the borders are very well guarded, many people get in, and can't be sent back to Morocco, as they do not want to accept them. Most of them are African, not necessarily Moroccan, and paid a lot of money to have a chance of entering the EU.
The little boats (pateras? nice to know the Spanish term for them!) are a different problem, many of the people on those boats are purely illegal, economic refugees, and have no intention to ask for asylum. There are many more people who want to cross the straight of Gibraltar like that, but they do not all land in the same spot, and thus the concentration is smaller...
A bit off topic; quite a few of the friends I made in Morocco already had such a boat trip, and were sent back, and one of them I heard died this year in an unsuccesful attempt. Seeing the amount of misery in the Sahara made me have a completely new understanding of their situation. In the whole of Morocco, unemployment rates vary around 50%, while for the Saharaoui it is well over 90%... just one of the repression tactics the Moroccan government uses. In that situation, I too might be tempted to take a 50% risk of dying on a boat, fleaing to the 'rich' world 
DeepO
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:20
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Fez, I just looked into my Lonely Planet guide, in which it says that an estimated 40% of possilbe workforce is unemplyed. So my number was a bit off, bit it only reinforces the point I was trying to make: I'm pretty sure that the rates are drastically worse in the Western Sahara. And before you say that the official numbers say that there the rates are around 70% (IIRC): true, but those official numbers do not make the difference between Saharaoui and Moroccan immigrants into the region. If you walk around there, you'd be hard pressed to find Saharaoui with a job, most of them are simply not allowed to get one. Official jobs are completely out of the question, the only way is to begin a business of your own.
There is one 'job' that is allowed: Polisario warriors are given a pension by the state if they turn themselves in. Most of the times it means waiting in prison for a few years, but from time to time (last time with the coronation of Hassan, but probably with his wedding now too) those warriors are given a pardon, and get a pension. And, if they want, a house in the northern part of Morocco, to get them out of their own country. The amount of pestering is impossible to describe, so I can imagine they want to flea to Spain. Certainly because many of the Saharaoui want to have their country back as a Spanish colony, if only to get rid of the Moroccan military threat (which is substantial, even if their army is smaller then the Spanish one)
DeepO
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Giancarlo
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Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:20
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quote:
Originally posted by DeepO
Fez, I just looked into my Lonely Planet guide, in which it says that an estimated 40% of possilbe workforce is unemplyed. |
CIA says 23%. Travel.dk.com/wdr says about the same. Spain's unemployment just fell to single digit numbers recently... 9%. But there still isn't enough jobs for immigrants.
quote:
And before you say that the official numbers say that there the rates are around 70% (IIRC): |
I really don't know where you are getting these numbers from. Morocco has one of the more functioning economies in Africa after Tunisia.
quote:
There is one 'job' that is allowed: Polisario warriors are given a pension by the state if they turn themselves in. Most of the times it means waiting in prison for a few years, but from time to time (last time with the coronation of Hassan, but probably with his wedding now too) those warriors are given a pardon, and get a pension. And, if they want, a house in the northern part of Morocco, to get them out of their own country. The amount of pestering is impossible to describe, so I can imagine they want to flea to Spain. |
Our unemployment rate is still high in Spain (9%) and another thing is 4 out of 10 immigrants in Spain are detained or arrested according to an recent article in El Pais.
quote:
Certainly because many of the Saharaoui want to have their country back as a Spanish colony, if only to get rid of the Moroccan military threat (which is substantial, even if their army is smaller then the Spanish one) |
Why would they want that?
Suck dirt, Marcus. At least we spaniards have a nice country and a decent military...
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18-07-2002 16:55
Sorry, I'm speaking about illegal immigrants
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