12-07-2002 18:14									#1
	City from size 1 to size 20 in about 16 turns Tired of ads?

That isn't possible? I use this trick (not a cheat!) often, when I've got SoL and Fundi and enough money:
Found a city - size 1.
Let 7 settlers go into this city - press b - size 8!
The other cities will substitute the lost settlers by rush buying and incremental buying. Let three cities build defensive units for garrison duty in the new city.
So you can have a new city of size 8 every 3-5 turns, if you want (if you have enough cities and enough room to expand).
Have your cities celebrating -> lux rate about 20%
Rush build an aqueduct, and if available, a sewer system.
So you can have a size-20-city in 13-16 turns.
I'm not sure if that was known to this forum. If so, forgive me, please.

	12-07-2002 22:50									#2
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This is common in points 'record setting games' late in the game if you didn't get all your cities down fast enough.

If you want the quick "big" city in regular games, it's usually just three settlers and celebrate from there since it's a more effecient use of resources.

In MP games it's just two settlers, so one can be an elvis to combat the unhappiness with lots of cities in deity.

But it is common to use settlers to get those gold mountain cities up to three so celebrating can begin.

RAH

	13-07-2002 03:32									#3
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Since the game increases population afterl food box full then consider happiness, it may be possible to get a city to increase 2 pops per turn, one by sending food caravans, another by WLTKD. Just a thought.

	13-07-2002 05:17									#4
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quote: Originally posted by rah RAH

/threadjack ON
New avatar, Rah? A schism within the Muppet ranks?
/threadjack OFF

I tend to celebrate my cities rather than add settlers to grow 'em. Being a rep/demo addict in the mid game, this always seems cheaper than rushing settlers (or food caravans) in fundy. To say nothing of it being less work doing all that incremental buying (A not insignificant consideration in my gigamap games).

The only times I add settlers to grow a city are unusual situations where a city is growing too slowly to work a special (e.g. building on desert) or to quickly increase a SSC or STC's size. It's nice to have two big trade cities in games where the AI isn't building big cities under representative governments.

STYOM

	13-07-2002 05:22									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Xin Yu Since the game increases population afterl food box full then consider happiness, it may be possible to get a city to increase 2 pops per turn, one by sending food caravans, another by WLTKD. Just a thought.

Sorry, Xin, been there, tried that, and didn't get the Tshirt - you can't successfully combine food caravans and celebration - or to be more accurate... II can't combine food caravans and celebration - can your devious mind come up with a solution?

SG[1]

	14-07-2002 06:43									#6
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The biggest problem is that after you grow via food you workers get moved from high trade tiles in preference for high food tiles. It might work if you can crowd the city with workers from neighbor cities, leaving the computer no choice where to put its workers. But then the cities are so close that growing twice in one turn would just be a footnote.

	14-07-2002 11:42									#7
	Re: City from size 1 to size 20 in about 16 turns Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by ramses II. I use this trick (not a cheat!) often, when I've got SoL and Fundi and enough money:

Do YOUR cities grow when celebrating in Fundy?
I guess you must be using a mod designed by SG1 .

	14-07-2002 12:56									#8
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The natural growth and WLT*D celebration doesn't work either when trying to grow two pop points in one turn...i imagine the game can only handle growth spurts of more than one per turn via add settler as all other attempts to do so have failed for me.....

even primed cities don't grow twice in one turn...which to me seems odd.....your city grows naturally from size three to four, even when celebrating at size four it won't go to five in the same turn.....

anyone know the "real" reason why this happens , or if i am doing something wrong , by all means enlighten me.....

	14-07-2002 14:58									#9
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Like the new avatar, Warz - big smile playing golf?

SG[1]

	14-07-2002 22:09									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits Like the new avatar, Warz - big smile playing golf? SG[1]

SG(1) i came across a smilie site....this was a happy smiley......i wanted a new avatar when i saw rah changed his....but since i have no clue how to make images smaller, i used a smiley...

i would love a boston red sox logo...but alas....i am unable to shrink these things

	14-07-2002 22:14									#11
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quote: Originally posted by War4ever SG(1) i came across a smiley site....this was a happy smiley......i wanted a new avatar when i saw rah changed his....but since i have no clue how to make images smaller, i used a smiley... i would love a boston red sox logo...but alas....i am unable to shrink these things

	15-07-2002 01:19									#12
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.

Attachment: redsox.gif
This has been downloaded 143 time(s).

	15-07-2002 05:19									#13
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Smash if you were female i would give you a big kiss......nothing like a fellow vancouverite helping out his mates

	15-07-2002 10:01									#14
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If I was female,I'd be a lesbian

this one should be transparent



free online gif editor

	15-07-2002 11:54									#15
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Patrolling the sky very far away from Vancouver, I would be very happy if someone could explain the link between Boston and the great British Columbian city.
(maybe also red socks?)

	15-07-2002 12:56									#16
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Back on topic: in my current game I just verified that a city WILL gain two citizens in a turn if the food box is naturally full and if the city is still celebrating after addition of that new citizen. There certainly didn't seem to be any trick to it. And I can't see any reason why it wouldn't also work if it was a food caravan that filled the box.

This is with 2.42.

	15-07-2002 14:21									#17
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quote: Originally posted by debeest Back on topic: in my current game I just verified that a city WILL gain two citizens in a turn if the food box is naturally full and if the city is still celebrating after addition of that new citizen. There certainly didn't seem to be any trick to it. And I can't see any reason why it wouldn't also work if it was a food caravan that filled the box. This is with 2.42.

Bizarre - this has never happened for me - and I have been watching, could you give some more details, such as size before and after, excess number of sheafs etc?

Smash, Warz, "Vancouvente"???

SG[1]

	15-07-2002 19:21									#18
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Better yet, save files.

Excess number of sheafs? Doesn't matter, because once the box is full the city grows next turn even if you switch it to deficit sheafs. As long as you have 1 excess Rep/Dem happiness growth is active. Additional sheafs are irrelevant, right?

Last edited by Straybow on 15-07-2002 at 19:26

	15-07-2002 20:27									#19
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quote: Originally posted by debeest I just verified that a city WILL gain two citizens in a turn

I vever see that in my games.
But I sometimes have seen that AI cities seem to grow at a amazing rythm, with more population that the number of turn allowing it !

	15-07-2002 23:41									#20
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At first thought I'd say that can't be possible.What happens for me is the growth from "we love" comes first which then changes the size of the food box making it impossible to fill up naturally.

It is Vancouverite.Or Vancouverites.

	16-07-2002 01:43									#21
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Oh I see Smash - my old eyes failing me again ...

That's why I asked about the number of excess sheaves - just possibly??????? if you have enough sheaves to refill the expanded box ???????????

SG[1]

	16-07-2002 02:36									#22
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I think the sequence is: natual population growth first, then check flags for WLTKD/riot from the previous turn, then calculate production (food, shield, trade), then check happiness for this turn and set new WLTKD/riot flags. So at least theoretically it is possible to grow by 2 within the same turn.

	19-07-2002 04:50									#23
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Dear me. I would have sworn that I had verified that it worked, but when I reload that game.sav, it generates the new citizen from the food box into forest, causing it to be unhappy. I must retract my claim, although I still feel certain that it would work. I gain great confidence from the fact that Xin Yu agrees. Perhaps I'll find time to cheat-generate a city that will do it.

	19-07-2002 04:56									#24
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you can leave the best square (irrigated grass, wheat, etc.) blank and put other citizens where you want them. This way you won't have any surprise -- the new citizen will surely go there.

	19-07-2002 06:35									#25
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

You CAN grow 2 pop per turn. Attached the saved file. Just deliver the freight to the city, then wait for the next turn, it will grow from 9 to 11.

Attachment: ca_b3700.sav
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).

	19-07-2002 08:34									#26
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Well,I'll be damned, its true.Could be quite useful in early landing attempts.

	19-07-2002 20:22									#27
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DOUBLE GROWTH


Interesting topic. I'll type something up about the details as far as I've discovered (version 5.4.0f) after wondering why some of my cities were increasing by 2 citizens per turn (at times) a while back.

The net effect is that normally, people probably don't notice "Natural" double growth, as the conditions are not too common unless you generate large amounts of excess food in Republic or Democracy. BTW, the game does not care where the excess food comes from (natural or food caravan/freight) to fill a food box.

This is how this works, including the basic algorithm. The actual sequence may seem somewhat complicated...

Double growth (Add 2 citizens in one turn) can occur two ways:

1. "Naturally", with Filling food box and being in Dem/Rep + celebration growth condition.
2. With the help of 1 (or 2) Food Caravans/Freights (Car/Frt).


Variable Definitions:

S - Size of city, initially.
E - Excess Food Supply.
F - Food box contents (# of food icons) at size S.


Sequence:

1. Check food box: is it full? If yes, complete 1a - 1c:
1a. Increase the Pop by one (add one citizen; the food box will be 10 larger).
1b. Place/Utilize the new Citizen with typical ineptitude.
1c. Change the food in the food box:
1c1. To half, if Pyramids/Granary.
1c2. To zero, if no Pyr/Grn.

2. Compute E: Final food box contents will be either:
2a. If Growth occurred in Step #1:
2a1. If Pyr/Grn: (5*(S+2) + E)
2b2. If No Pyr/Grn: E)
2b. If No Grow in Step #1:
2b1. (F + E)

3. Check Proper Celebration Growth Conditions:
3a. Republic or Democracy government.
3b. Celebration Flag set.
3c. At least 50% Happy citizens.
3d. Only Happy, Content, or Specialist citizens.
3e. Necessary improvements to grow (Aqu/Sew).
3f. At least one excess food available.

4. If Proper Celebration Growth conditions exist:
4a. Increase the Population by one (the food box will be 10 units larger).
4b. Place/Use the new Citizen with typical ineptitude.


Note: If the food excess (E) was less than 5 and you have Pyr/Grn, you'll need 2 caravans/freight (not just one) to accomplish the Double Growth feat via Car/Frt on the next turn.

Extra note: Double Growth can occur "Naturally" (With no Food Car/Frt help) if the city's excess food production exceeds (10*(S+2) - F). The "natural" double growth will occur on the following turn (because of filled food box). You won't see this very often; 2nd Celebration growth day is the most common time for it (if food box was already almost full). You need a lot of excess food to do this.... the easiest way to accomplish it is with Refrigeration & farmland.


---------- Game Example (natural food supply only): ----------
(Real game, with Pyramids & grassland farming, one whale, No Settlers/Engineers supported, no celebration at turn 1, Democracy)

Turn 1: Size 6 City. 53 food in box. E=15 (15 excess food); Cits on Whale & 6 GrassFarms.
Turn 2: Size 6 city. 68 food in box [53+15=68]. E=15. City begins Celebration.
Turn 3: Size 7 city. 83 food in box [68+15=83; Full; Max=80]. E=17. 1st Celebration Grow. New Cit on GrassFarm (GF).
Turn 4: Size 9 city. 64 food in box [5*(7+2)+19)=64]. DOUBLE GROWTH #1. 1st New Cit=GF, 2nd=Elvis. E=17 (with Elvis). At size 8, E=19.
Turn 5: Size 10 city. 85 food in box [64+19]. E=23.
Turn 6: Size 11 city. 108 food in box [85+23]. E=25.
Turn 7: Size 12 city. 133 food in box [108+25=133; Full; Max=130]. E=23. New citizen was Elvis. Set on GrassFarm (E=25).
Turn 8: Size 14 city. 95 food in box [5*(12+2)+25]. E=23. DOUBLE GROWTH #2. Two Elvis. Set Cit on GFs. E=31.
Turn 9: Size 15 city. 126 food in box [95+31]. E=33.
Turn10: Size 16 city. 159 food in box [126+33]. E=31. Elvis. Use GF. E=35.
Turn11: Size 17 city. 194 food in box [159+35=194; Full; Max=180]. E=33. Box Full. E=37.
Turn12: Size 19 city. 130 food in box [5*(17+2)+35]. E=33. DOUBLE GROWTH #3. 2 Elvis. E=41.
Turn13: Size 20 city. 171 food in box [130+41]. E=39. Elvis. Use GF. E=43.
Turn14: Size 21 city. 214 food in box [171+41]. E=41. Elvis.
Turn15: Size 22 city. 255 food in box [214+41=255; Full; Max=230]. E=39. Elvis.
Turn16: Size 24 city. 157 food in box [5*(22+2)+37]. E=35. DOUBLE GROWTH #4. 2 Elvis.
Turn17: Size 25 city. 192 food in box [157+35]. E=33. Elvis.
Turn18: Size 26 city. 225 food in box [192+33]. E=31. Elvis.
Turn19: Size 27 city. 256 food in box [225+31]. E=29. Elvis.
Turn20: Size 28 city. 285 food in box [256+29]. E=27. Elvis.
Turn21: Size 29 city. 312 food in box [285+27=312; Full; Max=300]. E=25. Elvis.
Turn22: Size 31 city. 225 food in box [5*(29+2)+23]. E=21. DOUBLE GROWTH #5. 2 Elvis.
--------- End Game Example ----------


SUMMARY: Yes, you can grow by 2 citizens per turn.... it's probably happened in many people's games. Further, it can be done with the help of food Car/Frt, or "naturally"!!

BTW, You cannot grow by 3 or more in one turn (due to game's program limits).




EDIT: Simplified & fixed typos.

Last edited by Starlifter on 19-07-2002 at 22:09

	19-07-2002 20:39									#28
	Remove this text

Hello Starlifter!
Glad to see you posting here.
(quite a long post = no surprise ; a detailed one too = no surprise either )

	19-07-2002 20:43									#29
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I am fairly sure that Airbus vet spies are already patrolling the sky over Seattle. No need for me to send any of mine .

	19-07-2002 20:46									#30
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quote: Hello Starlifter! Glad to see you posting here. (quite a long post = no surprise ; a detailed one too = no surprise either )

MarkG came up with an access solution for me, so now I can connect to Apolyton, albiet slowly (I have to edit links manually and put in the dot address he gave me, instead of allowing the DNSs in certain parts of the internet to supply the incorrect lookups). So it just take a while... most links I can't just click and follow .

So I hope to be able to take a look around a couple times a week.... you guys are quite knowledgeable about the game .