13-07-2002 00:16									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Can we say "going to the opposite extreme?" Give me a break, that's not what Rall is saying at all. Do you rightist folks read? Or was learning to read things too much of a "liberal" education for you?

First dear Boris, you shouldn't label, I'm as far from "rightest" as you can get and not be Left, I find Bush a clown, yet I also find liberals for the most part to be hopelessly diluted, so I'll thank you to keep your labels to yourself.

SUPER

quote: Rall isn't talking about appeasing terrorists, not even remotely. He's talking about addressing the legitimate concerns of MAINSTREAM Muslim nations in order to steal the thunder of extremist terrorist groups.

Seems your reading comprehention is the one in doubt dear boy.

quote: What part of "Parse Islamist demands into the acceptable and unreasonable" is so hard to understand? The unreasonable is represented by OBL and company. The reasonable is mainstream Muslim concern.

Oh, it';s "reasonable" to cut aid to Israel because the "mainstream" doesn't like it?
Are you kidding?

quote: You guys jump to irrational conclusions faster than Lincoln does whenever Ashcroft speaks...

You should read more carefully and label less often.

The guy says do what terrorists want to avoid terror.

	13-07-2002 00:24									#32
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From the article:

"It may or may not be wise to give into these demands, but dismissing them as the rants of cave-dwelling freedom-haters is lunacy. "

"Ignoring their concerns entirely-not to be confused with giving in to them-is sure to infuriate them further, which will merely increase the frequency and scale of future attacks."

"Addressing Islamist demands-not caving in outright-would eliminate most of the broad-based Muslim support for jihadi groups."

They're doing a sale at Pearl Vision, $99 for eyeglasses.

	13-07-2002 00:25									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 yet I also find liberals for the most part to be hopelessly diluted

I haven't drunk that much water lately...

	13-07-2002 00:34									#34
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He added platitudes, but if you look, his "How to win" is to do what they want.

You best run to pearl quickly.

	13-07-2002 00:37									#35
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Rall is spot on! Finally someone in the mainstream media that gets it! I'm shocked and suprised. Rall for SecState!

	13-07-2002 00:38									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 Oh, it';s "reasonable" to cut aid to Israel because the "mainstream" doesn't like it? Are you kidding?

Absolutely, but we should do it not out of that reason, but because it's just not necessary for Israeli security. They easily have the best military in the region, and its shown they can deal with the internal problems without our help. So long as we guarantee military support if they are attacked, I think we should damn well stop pumping our money into them.



We can spend that money on cancer research!

	13-07-2002 00:44									#38
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Let's go to that section of the article:

quote: Withdrawing our support for the corrupt Saudi dictatorship might lead to a less pro-American regime, for example, but it would begin to inoculate us from the mostly-justified criticism that we pro-democracy Americans promote oppression wherever it suits our business interests.

I don't have a problem with this. Just because terrorists want us out of S.A. doesn't make it a bad idea to do so. We shouldn't knee-jerk do the opposite of what the terrorists want, should we? That would be dumb foreign policy. I've said it all along that American best interest is to get out of S.A. and stop the reliance on ME oil.

quote: Stopping or reducing our $3 billion per annum flow of arms to Israel would allow us to truly act as an impartial negotiator in the Middle East, not to mention put a dent in the deficit. We could still offer to defend Israel in the event of an invasion, and while that stance wouldn't sate Osama et al., it wouldn't spark much anger among the great Arab mainstream.

Handled above. But notice he specifically points out its arms money. Why should we continue arms money to a nation that has nuclear capabilities? We can still give aid. And he says "or reduce," so it's not like he's flat against any aid for Israel.

I think it's farsightedness you need corrected, not near, because you're reading things into it that aren't there...

	13-07-2002 00:57									#39
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I wasn't aware we sent three billion in arms to Israel.

That's the total is US aid, proving straight away a little "agenda" of your author.

As for cutting foreign aid, I'm all for it, but it should be COMPLETE, with no exceptions.

Never supported the Saudis either, but you can continue to be cutsie, your article is basiccally "give em what they want and they will leave".

Simplistic and laughable.

Also not going to happen.

	13-07-2002 01:01									#40
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It's much smarter than lets smack them and make them madder at us so they can kill us again.

Frankly, if there are any other terracts in the US by Arabs, we deserve them. We haven't changed anything and just became the same bullies we were before.

	13-07-2002 01:03									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 First dear Boris, you shouldn't label, I'm as far from "rightest" as you can get and not be Left, I find Bush a clown, yet I also find liberals for the most part to be hopelessly diluted, so I'll thank you to keep your labels to yourself.

Just goes to show that everyone thinks their own position is the middle of the road.

	13-07-2002 01:06									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 I wasn't aware we sent three billion in arms to Israel. That's the total is US aid, proving straight away a little "agenda" of your author.

Or that he is mistaken in the amount of aid that goes just for arms, perhaps?

quote: As for cutting foreign aid, I'm all for it, but it should be COMPLETE, with no exceptions.

Well, fine. But I'd sooner cut military aid first, then domestic aid.

quote: Never supported the Saudis either, but you can continue to be cutsie, your article is basiccally "give em what they want and they will leave". Simplistic and laughable.

No, that's your simplistic and erroneous reading of what he is saying. He is saying we can't just categorically ignore the greivances of Muslims, because doing that plays right into the hands of the lunatic terrorists. We can address their concerns without caving into the terrorists, you know.

It is far less laughable a notion than the one that we will somehow magically be safer and end terrorism by closing our ears to any greivances and futiley trying to wipe out every terrorist we can find. As history has shown, that does not work. We will simply continue to breed animosity and misunderstandings.

We're already on our way to a complete disaster for Afghanistan, much like what happened to them just before the Taliban came to power.

	13-07-2002 01:07									#43
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Boris/Imran: Blowing yourself up in order to kill as many people as possible, along with supporting such acts, only serves to convince your target that you are clinically deranged and therefore not a suitable negotiation partner.

	13-07-2002 01:09									#44
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Excellent article.

	13-07-2002 01:09									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Echinda Just goes to show that everyone thinks their own position is the middle of the road.

Not me, I'm well aware that my position on some issues is quite leftist. But I think that, by Western standards, "centrist Americans" are "rightists."

	13-07-2002 01:10									#46
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quote: I wasn't aware we sent three billion in arms to Israel.

A bit old, but here:
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/US-Israel/FMF2000.html

	13-07-2002 01:10									#47
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quote: Boris/Imran: Blowing yourself up in order to kill as many people as possible, along with supporting such acts, only serves to convince your target that you are clinically deranged and therefore not a suitable negotiation partner.

So you are saying that the British should start bombing Catholic neighborhoods in Northern Ireland ?

	13-07-2002 01:12									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui So you are saying that the British should start bombing Catholic neighborhoods in Northern Ireland ?

They leave that to the Orange order.

	13-07-2002 01:17									#49
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Boris/Imran: Blowing yourself up in order to kill as many people as possible, along with supporting such acts, only serves to convince your target that you are clinically deranged and therefore not a suitable negotiation partner.

"Obviously, the perps of 9-11 should be brought to justice. Perhaps the Bushies are already working with Saudi and Egyptian authorities to track down members of the specific groups that planned and executed 9-11. If so, these guys, once arrested, should be put on trial for crimes against humanity at the World Court at The Hague. This would show the world that the U.S. seeks impartial justice rather than ham-fisted vengeance."

What about that is negotiating with people who commit such acts? It's not what he's saying at all! Are you being dense on purpose?

Addressing the concerns of mainstream Muslims isn't negotiating with terrorists, just because the terrorists happen to have some of the same goals as mainstream Muslims. It would be stupid to take an all-or-nothing attitude about this.

	13-07-2002 01:19									#50
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Ok, $2 billion in arms, not $3 billion. Wooooo...

	13-07-2002 01:25									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Ahem, read closer: He isn't saying Al Queda isn't serious, he's saying Al Queda is a group of lunatics. But by robbing them of support from the mainstream by taking mainstream grievances seriously, its power and ability to be dangerous will be crippled. You last sentence reeks of bigotry agains Muslims. Rall's point stands. An unreasonable stubborness to acknowledge ANY wrongdoing on the part of the U.S.A. against Muslim countries will continue to be met with fanatical extremism by lunatics. We've done a lot of damage over there, are continuing to do so, and will be a target so long as we keep doing so.

Osama Bin Laden doesn't need any support. He owns a huge construction company. He and his ilk don't really need much money anyway to buy a few box cutters. And my last sentence said that the terrorists hate Jews so that makes me a 'bigot against Muslims'? You must be kidding.

Yes we will continue to be a target as long as we refuse to hate Jews. As soon as we renounce Israel then I suppose the problem will be solved. I thought we learned something from Winston Churchill and Nevil Chamberlin.

	13-07-2002 01:32									#52
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quote: Blowing yourself up in order to kill as many people as possible, along with supporting such acts, only serves to convince your target that you are clinically deranged and therefore not a suitable negotiation partner. [...] The IRA never practiced suicide terrorism, Imran.

Martyrdom is understood only in the Islamic world? Do you think it would help the Palestinian struggle for independence if they used more conventional means of terror?

	13-07-2002 01:33									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov What about that is negotiating with people who commit such acts? It's not what he's saying at all! Are you being dense on purpose?

I never mentioned the 9/11 terrorists, Boris. They weren't even the main thrust of my comment. I was mainly concerned with the trend within Islamic societies to resort to the cold blooded and calculated murder of civilians in order to get thier point across when thier are far more effective ways to acomplish the same goal, especially with regard to Isreal. Thier cause is utterly discredited by thier quite open moral and monetary support for the murder of innocents.

The article, along with you and Imran, appear to subscribe to a fairly Pollyannish view of the world.

	13-07-2002 01:35									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Do you think it would help the Palestinian struggle for independence if they used more conventional means of terror?

I think terrorism is on the verge of completely discrediting the Palestinian cause and it is well past time for them to abandon the slaughter.

	13-07-2002 01:35									#55
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The fact remains that there is no reasoning with people who think that they are doing God a favor by killing innocents along with themselves. The idea of moderate Muslim support is commendable but OBL and his ilk has already been kicked out of the moderate nations. He does not need support he just needs a better visa making machine.

	13-07-2002 01:50									#56
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quote: I think terrorism is on the verge of completely discrediting the Palestinian cause and it is well past time for them to abandon the slaughter.

Imran's point was that the Israelis should've addressed Palestinian terror like the British have recently addressed Irish terror - by examining their legitimate grievances, instead of increasing repression.

	13-07-2002 01:55									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Imran's point was that the Israelis should've addressed Palestinian terror like the British have recently addressed Irish terror

The problem is that they never stopped, or even attempted to stop, attacking civilians during negotiations and in fact use the attacks as leverage to extract evermore concessions. This only serves as proof of the position of hardliners like Sharon.

	13-07-2002 02:01									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Do you think it would help the Palestinian struggle for independence if they used more conventional means of terror?

It would sure as heck help their efforts if they gave up on terror entirely. Much as I want to be on the Pal side of the conflict, every time they pull another "ha! got a schoolbus!" I can't help but to think that the Israelis should flush them all... for the benefit of mankind at large.

Frankly, if they sat down and did nothing at all for a year, their state would be handled to them on a silver platter.

	13-07-2002 02:04									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Frankly, if there are any other terracts in the US by Arabs, we deserve them.

Let's all hope they target lawyer schools in Atlanta, then, shall we?