14-07-2002 14:32									#121
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I agree. But they also must be made aware, especially in that part of the world, the US is not a paper tiger and will do whatever is necessary to achieve it's ends.
After the Beirut bombing, nothing.
Embassy bombings, nothing.
USS Cole, nothing.
WTC, full attack with takedown of country's government.
THAT got their attention irrespective of rhetoric.

	14-07-2002 14:40									#122
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You are right, about the latest response.

I sometimes wonder why Britain put up with bombs going off in London while the perpetrators were 'just over the border' in the Republic of Ireland. I'd have to think the government did not feel they could get away with an appropriate response to it's citizens being murdered and the murderers being sheltered in another country.

I sincerely hope that attitudes towards terrorism are different now.

Last edited by notyoueither on 14-07-2002 at 15:02

	14-07-2002 15:35									#123
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quote: Originally posted by cia Everyone here admits terrorism against the US is due to their support of corrupt regimes in the ME. So why attack the US when the Saudi government is your enemy? No one answers this fundamental question.

They hate the Saudi govt and other ME governments precisely because these governments are allied to the USA, and not the other way around.

Don't you see, the hate stems not from their hatred of the Saudi government, and from there, to USA, but in the opposite direction.

quote: What was the view for the man in the street of the Shah's Iran? What is the view for the man in the street of Saudi Arabia? I'm pretty sure I know what the view is for the man in the street of Bagdad.

What then, do you think, is his view?

Do you really think that people in countries like Iraq and North Korea despise their own leaders and regard the USA as a sort of beacon?
Or perhaps, it is the other way around?

	14-07-2002 15:45									#124
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quote: Originally posted by ranskaldan Or perhaps, it is the other way around?

That is precisely what I implied. They hate the West, and the US in particular for the abuses they have felt.

But, when you say that they hate their own regimes because they are allies (or enemies) of the US you generalize too much.

They hate for the misery inflicted on them. They would not care a bit if their governors were friendly with the West and the US, were they not oppressed.

	14-07-2002 15:46									#125
	Full PM-box? Change here!

The difficulty I have with that evaluation is that the underclass majority of Saudi's hate the royals due to their greed and backng of a non-Islamic state. Backing the US in any way, or the US backing them is therefore unacceptable as that is what people think has let them remain in power.

	14-07-2002 15:53									#126
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither But, when you say that they hate their own regimes because they are allies (or enemies) of the US you generalize too much. They hate for the misery inflicted on them. They would not care a bit if their governors were friendly with the West and the US, were they not oppressed.

I agree with you on that. But my point is that the people who do hate their own regimes do so mainly because of their governments' support of the US.

	14-07-2002 15:59									#127
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They hate because they are starving, or their brother is in prison for political views, or... And they think (or have been convinced) the US is causing it all (sometimes they are right).

Think about it. What would make you fanatical? Injustice in your own village or your benevolent ruler supporting the US?

	14-07-2002 20:08									#128
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quote: Originally posted by ranskaldan Actually, they are US allies, which is almost equivalent to US puppets.

Nonsense.
An idiotic statement by you.

quote: This "they can rot" attitude, coupled with invasion and sanction, is pretty much why America is so universally loathed.

That "universe" is pretty small, mainly a handful of leftist Europeans and the Islamic world.

quote: It's been less than a year. There's more than a year separating the Cole Attack and Sept 11 anyway. Besides, Al Qaeda (which is how it's spelled) may be in shards, but as they say, the spirit lives on and grows stronger.

Sure, and pigs fly.
As for spelling, it's bad form to correct spelling, as most mistakes are just typos, it makes you look pedantic.

quote: Support for Israel for instance is a fair amount of meddling.

Another nonsense argument.

quote: Sanctions on Cuba, on Iraq, and on other countries the US doesn't like.

Still doesn't amount to 'meddling".

quote: Its strange habit of training and supporting dictators and terrorists who then turns against it. (Saddam comes to mind)

He shouldn't, seeing how he was a Soviet creature, never a US one.

quote: All the political intrigue, amphibious assaults, support for one group or another, etc etc in South America.

What are you talking about?
This is exactly what I mean, unfounded rumor.

quote: The fiasco of Vietnam.

Almost all realize that was a cold war issue between the US and USSR.

quote: And don't get me started on the places that America should have gotten involved but didn't. Like Kyoto. They don't call America the International Policeman for nothing. I call it the International Rogue.

Based on nothing but inuendo and half truths.
I knew you wer anti-US, it was just a matter of getting you to admit it outright, instead of playing the moderate that you attempted.

quote: So the USA is following Europe in the footsteps of colonialism? How nice.

Has yet to happen, you don't see us putting our boot on some poor bastards neck and making them grovel, that's a European trait.

quote: Apparently you have no idea what Germany was like in the 1920's. It was like the ME today: poor, angry, and extremist. The Allies were contributors, and they reaped what they sowed.

I hold a masters in european history, specifically early to mid 20th century, 1900-1945.
I promise you I know FAR more about it then you.

quote: I share your joy.

I'm sure.

quote: Straw man argument.

Nothing worse then someone who uses buzz words as a rebuttal attempt.
You have no argument, just admit it.

quote: I'm not against force if there's no other way that could possibly work.

Any other way ended on 9/11/2001

quote: Unfortunately, in the vast wide world, there are many ways that are slower and more subtle but will work a lot better.

In your opinion.

quote: Unfortunately, that may work for interpersonal relationships, but certainly not for international relationships.

It's far more effective then you realize.
Why do you think the Soviets never had many terror problems?
Even in the Afghan war, they didn't have terror.
The reason was simple, the Soviets made it known they would hunt down and kill the families of terrorists.

quote: If a mosquito bites you, you probably should find where they breed, not attempt to swat every single one of the several thousand that approaches.

Nothing like inappropreate homolies.

quote: If you think it's stopped like that, then you're more naive than I thought.

Actually, navieve doesn't begin to describe you, but I'm sure your convinced your quite urbain and witty.

quote: Yes, and America, so far, has been happily encouraging everyone to fight to the end. A very wise path.

A very EFFECTIVE path.

quote: Mmm, and now you're out meddling.

Again with the baseless acustaion.

quote: Mmmm, and you're sitting aside and allowing it to happen, right?

Yes, contrary to the nonsense you've been attempting to spread, the US isn't out trying to control every government propaganda service.

quote: Don't be so confident. Overconfidence led to Sept 11.

Laxity caused 9/11, that was indeed a wake up.
They had their shot, the only one they are getting.

	14-07-2002 22:33									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 Your living in a dream world Boris, saying the same nonsense over and over again.

What? Your world is the dream one, far more Polyannaish than mine. What makes more sense, rationally:

"The U.S. has made mistakes in foreign policy and the consequences have come back to bite us on the butt."

or

"The U.S. has never made a foreign policy mistake, and there are no consequences for our actions abroad."

Wake up and stop being a naive, knee-jerk U.S. apologist. If you would actually THINK about U.S. policy you'd realize that being critical of it isn't tantamount to being anti-American.

I think this is a good summary fo such wretched policy, particularly with arms sales:

http://www.foreignpolicy-infocus.or.../arms_body.html

"In fact, the last 5 times the U.S. has sent significant numbers of troops into areas of conflict--in Panama, Iraq-Kuwait, Somalia, Haiti, and Bosnia--U.S. forces faced adversaries that had previously received U.S. weapons, military technology, and/or training."



I think you should read this source to see just how manipulative and stupid U.S. policy was towards Iraq and Iran during their war:

http://www.zmag.org/zmag/articles/ShalomIranIraq.html

Oh, and U.S. equipment to Iraq:

http://www.thebulletin.org/issues/1...n90ackland.html

"Right now the world is being forced to confront the explosive absurdity of treating arms sales as "just business." Iraqi missiles aimed at U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia are guided by sophisticated electronics equipment sold to Iraq by U.S. companies with approval of the U.S. government"

As Bill Hartung, director of the World Policy Institute's Arms Trade Resource Center said in a 1995 World Policy Institute report on U.S. arms sales, "The last four times the United States has sent troops into conflict in substantial numbers -- in Panama, Iraq, Somalia and Haiti -- they faced forces on the other side that had received U.S. weapons, training or military technology in the period leading up to the outbreak of hostilities."

http://www.iraqwatch.org/suppliers/USapproved.htm
http://www.iraqwatch.org/suppliers/studycommerce.htm
http://www.iraqwatch.org/suppliers/givebomb.htm

The soviets may have been the major supplier to Iraq (though they ceased shipping much arms after Hussein made clear his anti-Soviet feelings), but the U.S. certainly gave sold them a lot of equipment.

quote: We didn't "prop up" the shah, he was put in power by Britain, instead of a fanatic pro-nazi in the 1940s.

Wrong. The CIA was directly involved in manufacturing the coup d'etat that put the shah in power in 1953. The British were involved as well, but it was the CIA which did a lot of the dirty work:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB28/

quote: And Iran has been so much better under Islamic hardliners, hasn't it? They had their freedoms removed one by one by the regime that replaced the "evil" shah. This is exactly the kind of stupidity I constantly see in these threads, blame for the "evil" US, and zero proof to back it up. In fact Boris, take a look at this: http://www.iraniancivilrights.com/main2.htm This is what happened after the "US puppet" shah was forced out. If your against US support of the Shah, then your for murder of homosexuals, Zero rights for women, no rights in labor, the list of human rights abuses is endless.

Are you being dense on purpose? My entire point was that by orchestrating the coup and putting the shah in place, we precipitated the coming of a WORSE regime. I thought you had better cognative skills than this. You don't argue what people say, you just make up what you think people are saying and argue that. What a crock.

quote: And people like YOU favor pandering to these morons.

To paraphrase one of your posts to someone else, using a meaningless smiley ( ) in place of a real argument is pretty lame. So is this entire sentence, because no one has adovacted pandering to anybody. If you're so dumb as to think reassessing U.S. policy in the ME so that we're not f*cking up things like we did in Iran, Iraq and pre-Taliban Afghanistan constitutes pandering, that's your mistake. This about doing what is in the best interests of the U.S, which isn't sitting back and ignoring the issues Muslim nations have with boneheaded U.S. policies of the past.

And here's a few for you:

	14-07-2002 23:09									#130
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I just wrote a long rebuttal, but poly ate it!

Basically Boris, all of your sites arte heresay, not proof, they all are speculation.

	15-07-2002 01:15									#131
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I wonder how ANYONE can say we didn't support the Shah in Iran or Saddam. It's delusion to believe otherwise. After all Kissenger told Carter to protect the Shah (which is, btw, why the hostages were kept in the US embassy) because of 'all he's done for us'.

Chris, you are spouting revisionist history.

	15-07-2002 01:27									#132
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quote: You don't argue what people say, you just make up what you think people are saying and argue that.

if one would argue, wouldn't that person use arguments?
funny, because i really don't consider these arguments:

quote: Nonsense. An idiotic statement by you. .... Sure, and pigs fly. As for spelling, it's bad form to correct spelling, as most mistakes are just typos, it makes you look pedantic. ... Still doesn't amount to 'meddling". ... What are you talking about? This is exactly what I mean, unfounded rumor. ... Nothing worse then someone who uses buzz words as a rebuttal attempt. You have no argument, just admit it. ... I just wrote a long rebuttal, but poly ate it! Basically Boris, all of your sites arte heresay, not proof, they all are speculation.

and my dog ate my homework

	15-07-2002 15:55									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 Nonsense. An idiotic statement by you.

Alright. what about "minions"?

quote: That "universe" is pretty small, mainly a handful of leftist Europeans and the Islamic world.

You just have no idea how much America's policies are loathed all over the planet, don't you?

quote: Sure, and pigs fly. As for spelling, it's bad form to correct spelling, as most mistakes are just typos, it makes you look pedantic.

Al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations are regrouping, relocating and reorganizing as we speak.
As for spelling, we'll assume that "El Quieda" is a typo for "Al Qaeda". Maybe you should try to get yourself an English-language keyboard?

quote: Another nonsense argument.

It's nice if you could bother to explain.

quote: Still doesn't amount to 'meddling".He shouldn't, seeing how he was a Soviet creature, never a US one.What are you talking about?

Please read the above arguments of a fine American, Boris Godunov, who puts rednecks to shame.
Oh yea, America sold weapons to Iran too. Isn't it nice, supporting both sides in a war?

quote: This is exactly what I mean, unfounded rumor.

America has been treating Latin America as its own personal backyard even before it became a world power.

quote: Almost all realize that was a cold war issue between the US and USSR.Based on nothing but inuendo and half truths.

Perhaps if you could learn to recognize the Vietnam War as an event where millions of young Americans and Vietnamese gave their lives in vain, instead of an "issue", we won't be having most of this debate.

quote: I knew you wer anti-US, it was just a matter of getting you to admit it outright, instead of playing the moderate that you attempted.

I'm not anti-US. Some American posters here hold sane and logical views. Unfortunately, they're the minority.

quote: Has yet to happen, you don't see us putting our boot on some poor bastards neck and making them grovel, that's a European trait.

You're doing it to Iraq and Cuba. Unfortunately they haven't groveled yet.

quote: I hold a masters in european history, specifically early to mid 20th century, 1900-1945. I promise you I know FAR more about it then you.

Nice. Explain Versailles all to me then and tell me how it prevented Hitler's rise.

quote: I'm sure.

Glad we agree.

quote: Nothing worse then someone who uses buzz words as a rebuttal attempt. You have no argument, just admit it.

Maybe I should instead use insults, like the way you do?

quote: Any other way ended on 9/11/2001/

America's way ended on 9/11/2001.

quote: In your opinion.

Yes, that's right.

quote: It's far more effective then you realize. Why do you think the Soviets never had many terror problems? Even in the Afghan war, they didn't have terror. The reason was simple, the Soviets made it known they would hunt down and kill the families of terrorists.

May I kindly remind you that the Soviet Union lost its influence in Eastern Europe, lost its war in Afghanistan, and subsequently disintegrated?

quote: Nothing like inappropreate homolies.

Again, you might want to try explaining your point.

	15-07-2002 16:14									#134
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quote: Actually, navieve doesn't begin to describe you, but I'm sure your convinced your quite urbain and witty.

And I'm sure you're convinced that you have some sort of moral superiority. Or maybe even you aren't that extreme to think hat.

quote: A very EFFECTIVE path.

lol, we'll see about that.
Oppression begets revenge. Please see the first line of my signature.

quote: Again with the baseless acustaion.

Actually, I can just quote some of the things you say to be my evidence.

quote: Yes, contrary to the nonsense you've been attempting to spread, the US isn't out trying to control every government propaganda service.

Right..... they're trying to let each government tell what they like to their people. Right right....

quote: Laxity caused 9/11, that was indeed a wake up. They had their shot, the only one they are getting.

Many more are coming, my friend.

Alright, since this has devolved into a fest of insults, let me try to regroup my points:

The fact is, millions of people around the world are out for American blood, and a few billion more (myself included) simply don't like what America has done so far. If the Americans want to solve the terrorism problem they should at least try to understand the situation, and not lash out with random fury.

About the war in Afghanistan, this campaign is useful in stopping the short term threat of terrorism, but it doesn't combat terrorism in the long term. In a couple of years, Al Qaeda (or whatever replaces it) will be as strong as it was on Sept 10, 2001. Just look at Palestinian suicide bombings to see how quickly hatred breeds. Terrorism isn't like Nazi Germany: it isn't a physical entity consisting of factories and leaders: it is a mental force that permeates poor, oppressed society.

The war on terrorism is therefore not just a war against bin Laden, against munition dumps, against bomb factories. It is vastly more than that. It is a war against hatred and oppression. America is a participant in the hatred and oppression, and if the Americans want to solve their problem and our problem once and for all, they must realize this, and change their ways.

	15-07-2002 19:23									#135
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quote: Originally posted by cia Everyone here admits terrorism against the US is due to their support of corrupt regimes in the ME. So why attack the US when the Saudi government is your enemy? No one answers this fundamental question.

Because bin Laden is smart, much smarter than a lot of posters who are defending US foreign policy.

The corrupt regimes in the Middle East is just a symptom, the root cause being US foreign policy. It doesn't matter if these regimes are removed. Unless the cause is removed, they will reappear.

Same with terrorism. It is just a symptom.

I have pointed this ages ago.

Consider this situation. There is a large pot of water boiling over a fire. How do you stop it from boiling? It doesn't work very well if you just add cold water. The only solution to it is to put out the fire.

	15-07-2002 22:15									#136
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 Why do you think the Soviets never had many terror problems?

Actually, the Soviets had a substantial terror problem, they just didn't publicize it. (Two terror problems if include Stalin's terror.) The CIA waged a campagin of sabotage for decades in Eastern Europe and the Soviet union. They blew railways, electrical generation plants, screwed up public transportation, even did little things like stop up public toilets. I'm not aware of direct attacks on people, but I'm sure having the power cut in winter probably contributed to many deaths.

No matter how repressive you are, you can still have a terror problem, provided you have help. Even the Nazis faced terrorism.

	15-07-2002 22:18									#137
	Get a bigger avatar today!

cia, who says that there aren't acts of terror going on in Saudi Arabia against the Saudis? Do you keep a close watch on Saudi news? Even if you did. it is censored. I know of a few major events, but not many details. There have been quite a few attacks on the Egyptian government, including the assassination of Anwar Sadat. Algeria has a horrible problem with terrorists.

	15-07-2002 22:35									#138
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quote: The CIA waged a campagin of sabotage for decades in Eastern Europe and the Soviet union. They blew railways, electrical generation plants, screwed up public transportation, even did little things like stop up public toilets. I'm not aware of direct attacks on people, but I'm sure having the power cut in winter probably contributed to many deaths.

cia, care to comment?

che, you have proof of these things?

-Arrian

	15-07-2002 23:20									#139
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So much nonsense, so little fact.

Imran, I never said we didn't support the Shah, I said he wasn't a puppet.

As for Boris' links, if you look, each include disclaimers, such as the first says arms sales, not what they were.
The second supports the article's author's book on his opinion of "superpower alibies", and includes no hard data.
The third about arms sales also provides no list of arms to Iraq, just an accusation about guidence systems.
The forth says, and I quote, "US-approved exports may have aided Iraqi army" , an accusation, not a fact.
All of the links were like this, the CIA one was a NY Times article.
Since the CIA has released no such records, there is no PROOF.
All waste of time links.
Next case:

quote: Originally posted by ranskaldan Alright. what about "minions"?

More foolishness.
The US has no such puppets, no matter how hard you may wish it to be so.

quote: You just have no idea how much America's policies are loathed all over the planet, don't you?

Oh, your the voice of the world now? :roleyes:

quote: Al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations are regrouping, relocating and reorganizing as we speak. As for spelling, we'll assume that "El Quieda" is a typo for "Al Qaeda". Maybe you should try to get yourself an English-language keyboard?

Maybe you should try to discuss things instead of trying to be insulting just because I disagree with your half-assed statements.

quote: It's nice if you could bother to explain.

It would be nice if you posted something besides typical Leftist whining, but then, hope springs eternal.

quote: Please read the above arguments of a fine American, Boris Godunov, who puts rednecks to shame. Oh yea, America sold weapons to Iran too. Isn't it nice, supporting both sides in a war?

Considering the US didn't support Iraq, another assine statement by you.
If you find said Red necks, let me know, because I'm sure you have no concept what a red neck is.
And posting "we give up is good" doesn't make ANYBODY a "fine American".

quote: America has been treating Latin America as its own personal backyard even before it became a world power.

Jealous we managed to keep you out of someplace for a change?

quote: Perhaps if you could learn to recognize the Vietnam War as an event where millions of young Americans and Vietnamese gave their lives in vain, instead of an "issue", we won't be having most of this debate.

Millions of Americans?
57,000+ is the US total.
All wars are an issue, your moving into thearte of the absurd now.

quote: I'm not anti-US. Some American posters here hold sane and logical views. Unfortunately, they're the minority.

Guess again on your so-called anti-US postion.
And it's a fair bet your evaluation of "sane and logical" means they agree with you.

quote: You're doing it to Iraq and Cuba. Unfortunately they haven't groveled yet.

Dream on, fantasy boy.
Sanctions is not planting a flag and forcing the populence to sing "Hail Britannia"

quote: Nice. Explain Versailles all to me then and tell me how it prevented Hitler's rise.

The treaty was impossed on Germany mainly by France.
It was designed to cripple Germany for at least 50 years, even Loydd George thought it excessive, but Clemeseau wasn't having it.
It didn't prevent Hitler's rise, it's one of the issues he used in his camipaigns.
Still has no bareing on current situations, point out said Versailles.

quote: Glad we agree.

It would be nice, but I doubt it's possible, I don't believe in abject surrender and letting terrorists dictate to me, so it's unlikely I'll ever agree with you on anything.

quote: Maybe I should instead use insults, like the way you do?

You started it friend, not I.

quote: America's way ended on 9/11/2001. Yes, that's right. May I kindly remind you that the Soviet Union lost its influence in Eastern Europe, lost its war in Afghanistan, and subsequently disintegrated?

Because internally the USSR was built on flawed foundations, Communism.
It colasped ecnomically, something that the USA is far more resilliant in.

quote: Again, you might want to try explaining your point.

The only way to deal with mad dogs is to put them down.

quote: And I'm sure you're convinced that you have some sort of moral superiority. Or maybe even you aren't that extreme to think hat.

When I have the temerity to belittle your government (whatever it is), and insult your way of life, themn you can come complaining to me.
You don't see me doing that, do you?

quote: lol, we'll see about that. Oppression begets revenge. Please see the first line of my signature.

Like so many, you confuse war with oppression.
The US isn't "oppressing" anybody (except in some leftist's fantasy world).
You think a handful of punks can't be stopped, and then you offer your "solution".
I reject the notion that they can't be stopped.

quote: Actually, I can just quote some of the things you say to be my evidence.

Oh really?
What have I said that points to this "meddling" you keep mentioning (and never proving?)

quote: Right..... they're trying to let each government tell what they like to their people. Right right....

Your anti-US manifesto is getting quite tiresome.
Would you care to PROVE any of your assertions?
EVEN ONE?
And I don't mean with links to sites that say "may have", or "you know", as Boris attempted.

quote: Many more are coming, my friend.

Only if they find a way to blow something up from beyound the grave.

quote: Alright, since this has devolved into a fest of insults, let me try to regroup my points:

Only by you friend, I answer in kind.
You just didn't want to hear what I had to say.

quote: The fact is, millions of people around the world are out for American blood, and a few billion more (myself included) simply don't like what America has done so far. If the Americans want to solve the terrorism problem they should at least try to understand the situation, and not lash out with random fury.

This is basically an opinion on your part, not fact.
As for "out for blood", a large part of this is, in my opinion, the main result of the US being used as a scapegoat for the disafected, something for petty dictators to focus hate on.
The US isn't "lashing out" randonly, in fact, Bush's reponce was very controlled, right from the start.
And let me tell you something, many of us look on large portions of the world, especialt Europe, as the main cause of problems and a hindrence to effective solutions.
You you to say your disatisfied, withour even saying where your from, is a case in point.
Name what your disatisfied about, instance by instance, or stop wasting my time.

quote: About the war in Afghanistan, this campaign is useful in stopping the short term threat of terrorism, but it doesn't combat terrorism in the long term. In a couple of years, Al Qaeda (or whatever replaces it) will be as strong as it was on Sept 10, 2001. Just look at Palestinian suicide bombings to see how quickly hatred breeds. Terrorism isn't like Nazi Germany: it isn't a physical entity consisting of factories and leaders: it is a mental force that permeates poor, oppressed society.

I agree completely here.
But you deal with each problem in the here and now.
You start letting terror get a hearing, you will have terror groups springing up over everything, small and large, logical or absurd.
The point I have been trying to get accross (and quite poorly, obviously) is You can't negociate with a gun pointed in your face.
Also, historically, terror groups are not as long term as some of you put forth, OBL's group isn't large, but it was able to act from western laxity (they lived and operated freely in Germany, for example), they can be torn up through vigilence.
Of course they can reform in a sympathetic Muslim state, but what state will allow it if it knows the US will respond harshly?
Think about that, men like Saddam act as they do because the US did nothing to him personally.
Now, it is being made clear there will be accountability.
We even have a historical example, Ghaddafi of Libya.
Once a major terror supporter, but when attacked and shown he would be killed if he continued, he expelled terror groups from Libya.
Want more examples?
Jordan expelled the PLO, a far more extensive terror group sucessfully.
It can be done, IF you have the will to do it.
That giant crater outside my window where the WTC was gives all the will we need.

quote: The war on terrorism is therefore not just a war against bin Laden, against munition dumps, against bomb factories. It is vastly more than that. It is a war against hatred and oppression. America is a participant in the hatred and oppression, and if the Americans want to solve their problem and our problem once and for all, they must realize this, and change their ways.

I think the real problem is all this accusation of wrong doing.
Every time I ask for proof, I get the same old accusations.
Without FACTS, I will not accept your interpretation.

	15-07-2002 23:44									#140
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quote: Once a major terror supporter, but when attacked and shown he would be killed if he continued, he expelled terror groups from Libya.

do you have proof that the groups are actually out of Libya?

	15-07-2002 23:53									#141
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Sattelite recon photos are availible, hard evidence.

	16-07-2002 00:30									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian che, you have proof of these things? -Arrian

Pick up a copy of Killing Hope, by William Blum and read all about it.

	16-07-2002 00:46									#143
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quote: Sattelite recon photos are availible, hard evidence.

that's hardly proof, those satellites can't see everything.
there could still be terrorists in Libya, maybe not terrorist bases, but that doesn't mean they aren't there.

	16-07-2002 00:58									#144
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Oh, I think its fairly certain that Libya was helping terrorists, but they shut things down after Gadafi's adopted daughter was murdered by the US. The recent conviction of a Libyan intelligence officer not withstanding (since the stronger evidence points to a Iranian-Syrian connection).

	16-07-2002 02:34									#145
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Che,

I checked out Blum's website (I have no intention of buying his book). As he was apparently a former CIA agent, I'm sure he really does have evidence of unsavory things that agency did. If, however, the US gov't was as poweful and evil as he seems to believe, and he is busily exposing their dirty secrets, it seems to me they would have whacked him by now. Heh. There is a lot of ranting on that web site. He obviously has major beefs with his former employers and capitalism in general.

By the way, I have no doubt that the CIA has done things they shouldn't have done. I do think more oversight is required (but, of course, the more people are privy to the CIA's secrets, the more likely it is that some agent will get nailed because a congressman let some of it slip. Double-edged sword).

Anyway, time for me to go home.

-Arrian

	16-07-2002 15:17									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 So much nonsense, so little fact.

I can't believe I'm still wasting time exchanging insults with you. This is absolutely getting nowhere.

quote: That giant crater outside my window where the WTC was gives all the will we need.

Perhaps emotion has clouded your view.

In any case, why don't you give a summary of your views and points, and we'll see where it goes from there.

	16-07-2002 19:33									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Che, I checked out Blum's website (I have no intention of buying his book). As he was apparently a former CIA agent, I'm sure he really does have evidence of unsavory things that agency did. If, however, the US gov't was as poweful and evil as he seems to believe, and he is busily exposing their dirty secrets, it seems to me they would have whacked him by now.

After Phillip Agee exposed the CIA's dirty secrets in Inside the Agency and the world didn't come crashing down for them, they've taken a more hands off aproach to former agents defecting to the American public. Getting all upset about just gives the person publicity and credibity. They did try to kill Agee when he was writing his book, but failed.

	16-07-2002 20:23									#148
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quote: Originally posted by ranskaldan I can't believe I'm still wasting time exchanging insults with you. This is absolutely getting nowhere.

Now your talking sense.
If you hadn't started that, it would never have gone on this long.

quote: Perhaps emotion has clouded your view.

Not at all.

quote: In any case, why don't you give a summary of your views and points, and we'll see where it goes from there.

The USA is fighting an all out war on terror factions.
The majority of these are based in Muslim states, and are muslim funded.
There is no way to possibly convince said terrorists to cease and desist outside of abonding Israel completely.
The enemy only understands one thing: Force.
Rational discourse and compation are seen as signs of weakness by them, and as such, serve no purpose.
Only by direct action can terror be stopped, by a combination of heavy intelligence work, intense pressure on governments that allow terror cells to move about freely, and direct confrontation when said governments refuse to stop terror.
I also believe that support for loathesome regimes such as the Saudis and Eygpt are both dangerous and against the principles I believe in.

Let me tell you something else, I'm aware of the many mistakes America has made, and does make, but I wanted YOU to realize that much of it is groundless or based on heresay, which is why I demanded facts on certain matters.
Of course the shah was US supported, but the regime that replaced him is 100 times worse to it's own people, so I don't condem the shah, but I always laugh when I hear about the "CIA" doing this or that.
US intelligence has been probaly the worst in super-power history, to say they could pull anything off is odd to say the least.

As for the Saddam thing, the accusation was that high tech guidence technology was sold to Iraq, that is the extent of said help, and it's a joke considering that most SCUD missles were lucky to land within 5KM of their intended target.
So if we sold them that, they were robbed!

Iran-Contra is another matter, a quite serious bit of evil doing, an attempt to overthrow a leagal communist government in Central America using money obtained from the sale of weapons and spare parts to Iran, a disgraceful occurence, as was the arms for hostages deal that preceded it.

To say that US policy breeds terror is just an excuse for focused hatered, no matter what the US does, as long as the alliance with Israel continues so will this terror, so there is nothing to look at or re-think, we refuse to cut them off.

We SHOULD cut off the shieks of Saudi Arabia and the strongman Mubarik, and only deal with moderates like the new King of Jordan.

	16-07-2002 20:34									#149
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Um... Mubarak is a moderate.



As for the shah... our support of him made things much worse. People blamed the US for the shah. He was a murderous, contemptable bastard and he was 'our boy'. He wasn't much better than Pinochet in terms of killing dissidents.

And furthermore, if you simply say force is the answer, then this problem will NEVER end. It'll go on as long, if not longer than the 'War on Drugs'. Force begets hatred and then force by the other side.

	16-07-2002 20:37									#150
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Hosni a moderate?

Compared to some he could be considered so, but it's interesting that he's been "elected" for 20 odd years now.