12-07-2002 23:30									#1
	Toughest (non-human) opponents Increase the size of your Attachments

I just wanted to get a feel for what ya'll thought the toughest races were to play against. I think that the top three would do. I'm wondering if the Darlocks are in there.

R:PM

	12-07-2002 23:43									#2
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Being surrendered by Darloks, Psilons and Sillies is a pain. You *will* get framing wars, and they'll *will* have all the tech... and the prod.

	12-07-2002 23:50									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Moom

So that is

1. Darlock
2. Psilons
3. Sillies

???

	13-07-2002 01:18									#4
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Those are good canidates. Tolerant, Liv and Creative races are a pain.
Sillies have two of those traits. Tolerant means no pollution and 50% more pop. Livs do not need food. They are very production, lucky they do not grow fast.
Psilons enough said, they will have all the tech and have missile bases before the you can blink an eye. That makes it tough to take them down.
I would rather put the Saks before the Darloks though.
I am not so concerned with framing as I will not be making friends anyway and soon will have enough spies to thwart them from steal/sabotaging me. The Saks have 100% pop boost on a subterranean trait. LHW, +1 food and +GC with a fuedal gov. This means they will grow like weeds and get ships dirt cheap. I love to grab them as the subt is a godsend to my colonies once I bust them. They can show up with a monster fleet very early if you are unlucky. See they game Garth posted for an example. The Saks were closet race.
In fact I think the sillies are ones I hate to have in Moo1 as well. They mean lots of hostile planets and slow going for others and often are soon twice my size.

	13-07-2002 02:10									#5
	Remove this text

Vmxa1,

So that is:

1. Saks
2. Darlocks
3. Psilons
???

	13-07-2002 02:39									#6
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by RPMisCOOL Vmxa1, So that is: 1. Saks 2. Darlocks 3. Psilons ???

Not quite:

Psilons, Saks, Sillies. I have no fear of the Darloks, only stealthy ships, which is cured by Omi.

	14-07-2002 20:24									#7
	Suffering from ads?

i'd say:

1. silicoids (will be tech-stagnant from mid game)
2. psilons (have to take out as soon as possible or ally with them and rhame them last with all u got)
3. sakkra/klackon/darlok (darlok mostly in the early game.. later on not important cos i tend to kill them first )

	14-07-2002 23:04									#8
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Alphard i'd say: 1. silicoids (will be tech-stagnant from mid game) 2. psilons (have to take out as soon as possible or ally with them and rhame them last with all u got) 3. sakkra/klackon/darlok (darlok mostly in the early game.. later on not important cos i tend to kill them first )

Well said. My choices are geared for the early game and races that are close by. This because by mid game I am starting to assert myself and late game no one can stop you.

	15-07-2002 03:15									#9
	Toughest (non-human) opponents Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

There is no toughest non-human opponents if tactical combat is on.
I can win 90% games with feudal -growth in large unviverse, impossible level, full of computer players.

	15-07-2002 04:39									#10
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I am glad to hear you are so great, me I doubt, I could win against a std draw with those traits more than 30%, maybe not that well. If your point is that tactical is a big help for the player, so true. If your point is you are an expert player, great. I presume, no editors for those runs. Winning with feudal is not easy IMO.

	15-07-2002 05:02									#11
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Anyway here you go : -50% growth, feudal,-gc, RHW/LHW,+1 R, +1 P, +20 Ship Att, Tele, +10 Spy.
I have attached thos one, give it a go and post saves for Turn 50, 100, 150.

	15-07-2002 05:09									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Whoops forgot to attach it. Just rename it to .gam

Attachment: save1.sav
This has been downloaded 11 time(s).

	15-07-2002 15:23									#13
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

vmxa... I think feudal goes with omni, actually. These guys are all about jumping the right victim first, so you kinda need to know where they are from scratch.

	15-07-2002 16:24									#14
	Remove this text

In Moo2 the tough-ones for me are sakkras, psilons and silicoids.
Interestingly enough, so they are in Moo1...

	15-07-2002 20:17									#15
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

"I think feudal goes with omni, actually"

If somebody wants early attack feudal race, try: feudal, trans-d, high gravity, +50 defence (or maybe +25 defence, warlord for more ships).

4-6 basic frigates (empty ones or maybe some with 1 missile to kill enemy frigates) can destroy starbase. Your ships are almost immune to basic lazers. It takes 3 turns to reach starbase. So starbase fires lazers/nuke missiles twice. Than survived frigates board it. High gravity troops always win early combat.

Nasty race for small galaxy if played right. You need build frigates/transports and attack as fast as you can.

It will not work in large universe, because enemies are too far.

	15-07-2002 20:44									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by moominparatrooper vmxa... I think feudal goes with omni, actually. These guys are all about jumping the right victim first, so you kinda need to know where they are from scratch.

In a huge universe, you will not be reaching anybody for a while. When you finally make contact, you will have little choice as to who to attack, as you have limited range. Anyway, it was not mentioned, and the picks were all spoken for.

	15-07-2002 20:52									#17
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by ddd If somebody wants early attack feudal race, try: feudal, trans-d, high gravity, +50 defence (or maybe +25 defence, warlord for more ships). 4-6 basic frigates (empty ones or maybe some with 1 missile to kill enemy frigates) can destroy starbase. Your ships are almost immune to basic lazers. It takes 3 turns to reach starbase. So starbase fires lazers/nuke missiles twice. Than survived frigates board it. High gravity troops always win early combat. Nasty race for small galaxy if played right. You need build frigates/transports and attack as fast as you can. It will not work in large universe, because enemies are too far.

I just think you will play hell surviving with that race at impossible, let alone attacking. You will never get any research done. Even the 50 rp picks will be more than 10 turns. You won't have ship tech for a long time. In a small universe you cold be dead before you ever got ships built. You will be getting 5 rp only. This could go down in a short while as you may be forced to move a scientist to making food. Many times I was only making 4 rp because I had to move pop around. This lets the AI get way ahead of you.

	16-07-2002 21:09									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Silicoids are usually the toughest, as they have the biggest chance of running into the good planets. I'd pick Klacs as second, and probably Saks as third.

	17-07-2002 01:41									#19
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Okay, I'm giving 10 for 1st, 7 for second, and 4 for third. Here are the results so far:

Sillies - 28
Psilon - 24
Saks - 22
Klacks - 8
Darlock - 1

Still waiting for some more opinions here.

ddd - Surely you have more trouble with some than others?
moom?

	17-07-2002 10:21									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Depends on whether its Moo1 or 2. I always play on impossible and with the largest galaxy size.
In Moo2 the opponents seem to be much more uniform and I tend to treat them more as equals (Except for those evil Darloks - My custom race has spying penalties ).

Moo1
- 1st - Psilons (by a long shot). They are also my favourite race to play so perhaps I just don't spend enough time going up against them. When I do their tech goes through the roof on impossible so my only real chance is to try and minimize losses, divert their fleets, get them involved in attacking several others simultaneously, and hope they offer peace soon.

- 2nd equal - the Klackons/Meklars. Their production really hurts me - both in tech aquisition and in shipbuilding.

- 4th - Silicoids - but only if they start close to me and hence grab all of the hostile env. mineral rich worlds before I've developed the tech to do so myself. If they start a long way away they aren't usually too tough to overcome.


- The Warcats/Alkari can also be a bit awkward early on in space combat as my computer techs tend to take a much much lower priority to robotic controls.
What do people find so tough about the Sakkra? I don't think I've ever really had much of a problem with them.

	17-07-2002 18:13									#21
	Got spare money?

Ravagon,

I'm sorry, I was referring to Moo2. I know that you say that they are all even, but perhaps if you played some small universe games??? Surely, there has to be some ranking.

	18-07-2002 14:15									#22
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Well, if I had to make a distinction ...

(1) Darloks - Evils SOB's who frame me for everything! (My inherent spying penalties have nothing to do with this of course )I try to assimilate them as soon as they show up with my telepathic cruisers.

(2) Trilarians - Their movement bonus early on can be pretty detrimental if you get into a fight. You see their squadrons heading for your systems from further away and realize that they'll get there faster than your closer reinforcements (Hence I don't get into scraps with them early on anymore if I can help it - besides which they just look so cool ). I can tell where/when they'll hit as I'm usually omniscient but it just doesn't help if they're that much faster.

(3) 4th equal (i) Psilons - Same as in Moo1. Their tech acquisition rate can be formidable if they're left alone too long. It doesn't usually happen though.
(ii) Elerians - Not much of a threat later on as the AI seems to languish drastically in tech - but a warlord race early on, immune to telepathic takeover can be a nuisance.


I tend to dislike smaller galaxies simply because the game is decided far too early. I prefer to develop and use all of the techs in game and see all of the events - similarly for civ2.

	18-07-2002 18:21									#23
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Here's the new total:

Sillies - 28
Psilon - 26
Saks - 22
Darlock - 11
Klacks - 8
Trillians - 7
Elerians - 2


Still waiting for some more opinions here......

	23-08-2002 02:53									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

The Sillis are very evil I lost to them sometimes (the only loss I've had) the Psilons are sometimes also be annoying they are friendly in the beginning but when I'm bothering them all the time for tech they begin to be angry and went to war with me.

So here's my tip: never annoy the Psilons.

	23-08-2002 04:16									#25
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

It is wise to eliminate an ceative race ASAP, you will not like them when they have all of the tech and ou don't.

	23-08-2002 14:04									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

But I thought it must be a good strategy to keep them as researching slaves. Keep them military weak (destroy their ships and conquer some of their planets) and demand techs from them. But as I said it works out for some time but sooner or later they got mad and declare war tsts naughty Psilons

	23-08-2002 21:04									#27
	Get a bigger avatar today!

That can work, just so you do not let them develop. If you are thinning out their holdings so can they can not challenge you that is fine. I slave them in Moo, but in Moo2 I only want +pop slaves. The reason is that in Moo, I have no control over the tech that I may get. In Moo2, I get to choose, so I do not need to hold off on the genocide.

	24-08-2002 01:51									#28
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by RPMisCOOL ddd - Surely you have more trouble with some than others?

I have no problems with ANY AI if large galaxy.

There are some things where AI is always wrong:

1. AI doesn't colonize all planets in star system.

2. AI doesn't build all necessary facilities.
- Example, I saw planets with marine barracks and star bases only. AI had research labs and supercomputers, but did not build them.

3. AI doesn't know how to design ships.
- Example, Dumb AI puts bombs on board. Also it mixes missiles and beams. 100% stupid.

4. AI doesn't fight well if tactical combat.
- Example, build 3 destroyers with 4 MIRV nuke missiles/Aug engines + 1 one empty destroyer with Aug engines.
When AI Battleship comes, 3 destroyers fire all missiles and retreat. Fast empty ship keeps battle going (runs away from battleship). Missiles kill Battleship easy: 4 missiles x 2 shots x 3 destroyers x 32 MIRV nuke damage = 768 points of damage.
Add more destroyers if AI got computers and armor.
The same method works fine against hydra and amoeba.

5. AI ships never use wormholes.

Regards,
ddd

	24-08-2002 02:20									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

What you say is often true. None the less, at imposible the boost it can get may allow it to make things tough. I have had Saks show up with fleets that can take me down very early, yup, I do not always win at impossible. Lower settings yes, but some races like Saks can have so many picks, it is not to be believed. They do not have to live with only plus 10. If you have one of those races close to you and your system is not good, I pity the fool. I should point out I am talking about not using any cheats or the build queue exploits. Prewarp, so no battle Station or ships. Non creative.

	24-08-2002 10:22									#30
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I should point out I am talking about not using any cheats or the build queue exploits. Prewarp, so no battle Station or ships. Non creative.

Sure, no cheats or editors. Usually I play average tech level, impossible, organic rich (mineral rich is too easy and average is boring).
Prewarp? It's OK for a change. Creative is bad race for prewarp anyway. (Actually it was good before patch 1.3, when cost was 6 picks.)
I recommend Unification+Artifacts, Democracy+Lithovore or Dictatorship+Subterranen+Lithovore.

I like Sakkras.
Feudal+(-10 spies) = good sources of technology.
+100 pop growth = a lot of good slaves.

Yeah, I lost one game on impossible. I got time anomaly (10 turns) at home system and attack next turn after anomaly disappeared. I think it was an accident. I can't say I'm 100% succesfull. Never say never. About 99%.

Regards,
ddd