13-07-2002 23:29									#31
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Better to risk disgusting some well-off people in Western Europe who don't know the true meaning of terror, persecution and open hostilities than to be certain of ceasing to exist as a nation.

	13-07-2002 23:30									#32
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And I assume you believe in black helicopters piloted by the UN to take over the world as well?

	13-07-2002 23:32									#33
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quote: Its their country, why shouldnt they have the right to say who gets to come in and who doesnt? Just because they want to favor their own kind it doesnt mean they are evil.

So you think that apartheid is alright? Germany, Zimbabwe, Yugoslavia, South Africa...you are alright with what happened there, or is happening?

	13-07-2002 23:32									#34
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We know where your sympathies lie IS.

	13-07-2002 23:33									#35
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quote: some well-off people in Western Europe who don't know the true meaning of terror

and you do bubba?

	13-07-2002 23:33									#36
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No, but I'm not disgusted.

	13-07-2002 23:35									#37
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So you are ok with Apartheid as it was in South Africa? Or the things going on in present day Zimbabwe?

	13-07-2002 23:36									#38
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No.

	13-07-2002 23:38									#39
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When I went to Isreal there were several settlements where Arabs couldn't live or even go into. Non-Jews, provided they weren't Arab, could live and travel through them quite easily.

Is this racism? No, just common sense in a country were Arabs are blowing themselves up on a daily baises and in which you can't tell the "good" Arab from the "bad" Arab. I bet if your life or the lives of your loved ones was on the line some of you arm chair pundits might change your tunes.

	13-07-2002 23:39									#40
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quote: We know where your sympathies lie IS.

And we know where your's lie.

	13-07-2002 23:40									#41
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Winston:

And in what way is what Israel is doing different from South Africa (back then) and Zimbabwe right now?

In Zimbabwe in particular, things seem very similar. Whites who own land their, have their land taken away and handed out to the blacks. Whites also have extreme difficulty buying land there, because of racist laws.

Replace Zimbabwe with Israel, replace whites with muslims and blacks with jews. That's the situation in Israel.


And don't start witht he "survival" argument. Currently, Jews own 41% of the westbank, and muslims own probably around 1% of land in Israel-proper. There is no threath.

	13-07-2002 23:42									#42
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quote: Is this racism? No, just common sense in a country were Arabs are blowing themselves up on a daily baises and in which you can't tell the "good" Arab from the "bad" Arab. I bet if your life or the lives of your loved ones was on the line some of you arm chair pundits might change your tunes.

Funny. It's the same arugment the whites used in South Africa under Apartheid. You can't tell the good black from the bad black, so all blacks were kept out of certain cities or neighbourhoods.

	13-07-2002 23:44									#43
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Exactly Marcus (, I have to stop saying that ).

Can't tell the Good Arabs v. Bad Arabs sounds VERY racist. Kind of like the American South after reconstruction.

	13-07-2002 23:46									#44
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You keep painting the Arabs as victims. In my book they're the aggressor.

	13-07-2002 23:48									#45
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Agressors usually aren't the natives.

	13-07-2002 23:57									#46
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse quote: It's the only state whose neighbours actually wants it wiped from the surface of the planet This is just plain false. I can think up half a dozen examples of this...

You're not making any implications are you Canuck? I know what's going on, I read satirewire.com. . .

	14-07-2002 00:00									#47
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aren't we generalizing now , Che?

"natives".... pffff.

	14-07-2002 00:00									#48
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Sense we are so emotionally bound up in this debate looking at things from a different perspective may help us. In WWI & WW2 a German citizen would be interned if he was found in territory control by the allies and visa versa. Was this because British were viralently racist against Germans? No, people recognized that there was a war going on and that security concerns over road normal nicities.

What we have in the middle east is a war and now arm chair liberals want to condemn Isreal for using the same proceedures the rest of the world has been using. Where is your outrage when Jews & Christians are repressed in Muslim countries? Where are your fine words when non-Muslims are fired from their jobs, are imprisioned, or linched in Arab/Muslim countries?

Why do you so venemently protest one act but ignore the others?

	14-07-2002 00:02									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Can't tell the Good Arabs v. Bad Arabs sounds VERY racist. Kind of like the American South after reconstruction.

Hardly, in this context "bad" means those with homicidal intent and "good" means those who do not wish to kill their neighbors.

	14-07-2002 00:04									#50
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If saying that helps you sleep at night, go ahead. But it is basically the definition of rascism.

	14-07-2002 00:06									#51
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Agressors usually aren't the natives.

Natives? Oh, you must mean the Christian Byzantines who's land the Arabs invaded, forcibely converted, and subjugated. What a minute... Didn't the Christians take the land from the Romans, who took the land from the Jews, who took the land from...

You see my friend none of us are natives. All societies live on land that once belonged to someone else. The whole idea of "natives" is illogical.

	14-07-2002 01:31									#52
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Oerdin: Fascinating... So Hitler was a nice old man, just affirming the natural order?

I'm sorry, but there are a few of us believing in civilization...

	14-07-2002 01:46									#53
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Oerdin: Fascinating... So Hitler was a nice old man, just affirming the natural order? I'm sorry, but there are a few of us believing in civilization...

Hitler was evil. But there still aren't any natives...

BTW Nice Red Herring; I suppose responding to arguments is to much to ask?

	14-07-2002 01:49									#54
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Red Herring?

In civilized society we have established that you can't take someones property, even if you are stronger and more intimidating.

Claiming that 'there is no such thing as property' is just a weak justification for anarchy...

Likewise with your 'there are no natives', as in context it translated into 'palestinains don't have rights to the land they lived on for hundreds of years'.

	14-07-2002 01:58									#55
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Red Herring? In civilized society we have established that you can't take someones property, even if you are stronger and more intimidating. Claiming that 'there is no such thing as property' is just a weak justification for anarchy... Likewise with your 'there are no natives', as in context it translated into 'palestinains don't have rights to the land they lived on for hundreds of years'.

I didn't say anyone could steal other people's property. chegitz guevara contended that Palistines were natives and I replied that the Palistines, like everyone else, wasn't native. That whole discussion was really nothing more then a side track of a side track. An acedmic excerise in history from which you may infur what ever you wish though nothing was implied.

	14-07-2002 02:05									#56
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Your defense of racism is rather disturbing.

	14-07-2002 02:08									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus Your defense of racism is rather disturbing.

That's right Marcus, keep skirting the issues. Keep yelling racism and don't respond to any arguments set forth.

It is my experience that when one side stops talking about issues and starts figure pointing & calling names it is because they have lost the debate.

	14-07-2002 02:11									#58
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you present no defense whatsoever. And you ignored my argument entirely.

Funny. It's the same arugment the whites used in South Africa under Apartheid. You can't tell the good black from the bad black, so all blacks were kept out of certain cities or neighbourhoods.

They used the same arguments as you. Are you saying they were right to impose Apartheid? Seems like you are.

	14-07-2002 02:12									#59
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Racism, racism, it's all about racism isn't it.

That's probably the most devaluated word in contemporary society. The Dutch government proposes stricter immigration laws and it's racism. The Israelis set up measures to keep Arabs from taking over their land and it's racism. Men can't give birth, that's probably soon gonna be racism also.

You don't win debates by flaunting this cheapskate accusation around, you know.

	14-07-2002 02:17									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin You see my friend none of us are natives. All societies live on land that once belonged to someone else. The whole idea of "natives" is illogical.

After 1400 years, you're a native. Especially considering that most of thos Byzantine Greeks adopted Islam and Arabic and stayed. There weren't enough Arabs in the Arab pennensul to colonize all of the lands the conquered. The reason there are so many Arabs no is because people convereted. Before you go off strutting around, you might want to study Middle Eastern history in depth. Me, I'm fascinated by the stuff. I read about it all the time.