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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov
quote:
If we hadn't given them civil rights, maybe we would have had some. We did the right thing and gave in while it was still relatively non-violent. Israel waited a bit too long. |
I thought they were impaired of civil rights until the 60s.
Considering USA was founded in the 18th century, that's a long time of being opressed. |
Oh, well, I guess you hadn't heard of the slave revolts. They tended to kill every white person they came across. After slavery ended, there was massive terrorism in the US, but it was directed against Black people. Even the meagerest Black resistence was crushed. Several Black towns were erased from the map. The Black part of Oklahoma City was destroyed, burned, and pushed into the river. It was even bombed from the air.
There were some attmpts at Black terrorism in the 70s, but they weren't very good at it, and they are all dead, in prison, or in exile.
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:20
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Even Siro, an Israeli, claimed that the pretext for the invasion was not PLO terror attacks, but the assassintation of th Israeli ambassador in London. Of course, the fact tht he was killed by Abu-Nidal, which was not part of the PLO didn't deter the invasion.
Stop relying on US sources alone. They kiss the Israeli's ass.
But, since you claim to be an historian of sorts, who don't you do an NYTimes for the period of 1981-82 for Palestinian terrorism. You'll likely have to go to an actual libary to do it however. You won't find any attacks because they didn't exist.
Also, Israel had its chain yanked from invading Beruit. It wanted to. But after killing 20,000 people in Sidon and Tyre alone, even Reagan wasn't ready to see what would happen in Beruit.
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Dr Strangelove
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There are a number of countries around the world which restrict the rights of certain people to own real estate. When I lived in Grenada there was a law that forbade foreigners from purchasing land. Foreigners could however lease land for up to 99 years. Similar laws existed in various other developing countries at that time ( 1980 ). I seem to recall that during that era even several allied European nations regulated the purchase of land within their borders. They especially targeted Americans.
Is Israel still building the big wall around the West Bank? Could they be contemplating unilaterally cutting the West Bank and Gaza away? If these areas become truely independent I think we can assume that the Israeli settlers will be ejected. You can assume that the Palestinian state would never recognize the right of an Israeli to own property in Palestine.
If Israel and Palestine seperate then Paelstinians living in Israel will have to choose between one or the other. Those who choose palestine will effectively make themselves foreigners within Israel. Even Europe has historically recognized the right of a sovreign nation to restrict the ownership of property by foreigners within tis borders. Come to think of it, even the US has at times acted to ward off Japanese interests within the US.
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Oerdin
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of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:20
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quote:
Originally posted by S. Kroeze
Dear Oerdin,
Since you studied History, could you please read and react to this thread?
My opponents in this previous discussion were completely unable to recommend one recent reliable study on Israel supporting their views. Instead they resorted to this contemptuous strategy, trying to discredit my sources, all professional historical research.
I hope you can list your sources. Please do! I will try to read the books you recommend.
Perhaps you should read some of the books I recommend.
Sincerely,
S.Kroeze |
Kroeze: As I said before my expertise is in Ancient history but I will take a stab at the first article listed on your link. Without looking each case up I would say by and large many of the facts you state are true but selectively biased. They do, however, represent things which have occurred over the last half century. Please note that is is my opinion as a non-Jew and non- Israeli.
Arabs really are treated as second class citizens. In my observations this has more to do with bad feelings and uncertainties brought about by the on going conflict then by systemic racism or agast against individuals. While I was in Israel (in 1995) I saw several cases of Jews and Muslims working together and getting along on a personal level. It is mainly the mob thinking during times of war and crises which result in things like this.
Yes, the Israeli government nationalized all non-urban land in 1948. This did result in many arab farmers losing control of land they had lived on; to date only part of these group has been compensated but several offers have been made. You are entitled to your own opinions as to whither the financial compensation was adequate or not. I do believe that every government does have the right to nationalize assets if it is deemed in the national interest; I don't think that this should be done without compensation to the aggrieved party.
There is a long tradition of various governments nationalizing property. To this date the U.S> government still owns 90% of the land in the U.S. the figure is higher for Canada and 100% of all non-urban land in the former USSR is still state owned to this day. How much land does the French government hold that was nationalized from the Aristocracy during the revolution and how many companies does it still own that it nationalized from their private owners in the late 19th & early 20th centuries? Mexico, many other latin American countries, has gone through multiple fits of nationalization. China, Germany, Ireland, many african countries & Asian countries have all had nationalizations and that doesn't even count the rampent Arab nationalizations of land & businesses which occured from the 40's through the 80's. Governments have a right to do this but people should be compensated I agree.
You implied most arabs rejected the compensation because it was to small. That was part of it, but, Palestinians' unwritten law is to execute anyone who accepted the sale of land to a non-arab whither it was to the government or private citizen. Would you accept a solution, even a fair solution, if you knew someone would try to kill you for it? As I said before the situation is complicated and constinently changing. To try to blame one side is not only unfair but untrue.
The part speaking of it being illegal for Jews and non-Jews to marry is not true. Only the orthodox Jewish church refuses to recognize them but everyone is allowed to get civil marriages. If you will recall the Roman Catholic church refuses to recognize marriages between a Catholic and a non-Catholic and I believe the Orthodox and most Protestant groups have similar restrictions. If one is to go by Koranic law then a Muslim and non-Muslim may marry only if it is sworn in front of witnesses that the children will all be raised Muslim.
As for the part about Arabs only making up 14% (while having 20% of the population) of the membership in unions and workers' collectives, well, the under representation in the work force has to do with the historical lack of education among the arab population. Like the current under representation of black Americans the reasons are varied but mostly related to mistrust built up by a half century of warfare and threats of warfare.
The real way to address these issues starts with a peace agreement based upon the U.S.-Saudi initiative. The one that Arafat was offered 98% of and rejected two years ago. That's the reality. No one will trust each other enough to make reforms until the war is ended.
Last edited by Oerdin on 14-07-2002 at 22:08
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14-07-2002 07:01
I don't feel like continuing it. It takes up too much time.
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