18-07-2002 13:08									#211
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Most of you don't remember the Cold War. This kind of mindless snooping and snitching is nothing new. It wasn't confined to the communist countries. Ever heard of "reds under the beds"?

no...

what's that tapping devices?

	18-07-2002 13:12									#212
	Support Apolyton

quote: I don't think the government will recruit everyone that signs up for this program. I'm sure that they will carefully screen applicants to ensure that they can be trusted.

Yeah, CCTV cameras in public places don't violate the privacy of homes, and they deterr criminals by allowing law enforcement to catch them after the fact. This would try to catch people before they did anything!

	18-07-2002 13:18									#213
	Support Apolyton

"They were able to do this because ordinary Germans were more than willing to monitor and report ot the gestapo on their neighbours without being recruited for the purpose."

And apart from that, they had the Blockwart system in the party.

	18-07-2002 13:26									#214
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Roland "They were able to do this because ordinary Germans were more than willing to monitor and report ot the gestapo on their neighbours without being recruited for the purpose." And apart from that, they had the Blockwart system in the party.

for uninitiated - what was "Blockwart"?

	18-07-2002 13:49									#215
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

The smallest unit of the NSDAP, a block of flats or a small area. When the Nazis came to power those members took on a spy/informant/surveillance function.

	18-07-2002 13:52									#216
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Roland The smallest unit of the NSDAP, a block of flats or a small area. When the Nazis came to power those members took on a spy/informant/surveillance function.

sounds similar to the US model, but it is not just republicans that are recruited

	18-07-2002 18:04									#217
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: not to nitpick Drake, but so much has changed since 9/11 who can see 10 years down the line?

Take a snapshot of America 1 year pre-911 and 1 year post 911 and the pictures youll see will be nearly identical. No one will ever forget 911...but what really has changed? Where are the big differences that you imply? I haven't seen them. Have you?

quote: Watch for suspicious activity: good Report suspicious activity to authorities: good Authorities make enquiries: good Authorities come into your home without a warrant: bad Authorities hide surveillance devices in your home without notifying you: bad. Under common law, citizens have the right to know when they are suspected of illegal activity. This would be a gross denial of common law. Authorities make report on alleged suspect: What? No charges have been laid?! Doesn't a report constitute a presumption of fact? Isn't anyone who reads that report in years to come going to presume the suspect to be suspicious, irrespective of substantiation?

Where did I ever say anything about this? I agree with you on every count.

This plan we're discussing doesn't give any citizen off the street any such ability to enter someones home or plant surveillance devices. Nor does it give them right to arrest anyone un-lawfully.

You are jumping to conclusions. Just because some yahoo volunteer calls in a TIP doesnt mean the "suspicious person" is going to be violated in any of these ways. In all likelihood 99 out of 100 tips would probably be screened out. To think the government has the resources to follow up on every tip is silly.

	18-07-2002 18:19									#218
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by drake Take a snapshot of America 1 year pre-911 and 1 year post 911 and the pictures youll see will be nearly identical. No one will ever forget 911...but what really has changed? Where are the big differences that you imply? I haven't seen them. Have you?

the fact that these laws (and many other anti-terrorist measures that restrict civil liberties)are close to being passed in 'the land of the free' in proof enough, would they have got through 12 months ago?

	18-07-2002 18:38									#219
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Roland The smallest unit of the NSDAP, a block of flats or a small area. When the Nazis came to power those members took on a spy/informant/surveillance function.

Well they researched the archives recently and found people were just informing on others to be patriotic. They didn't even need an organised system like that.

Its not just Germans, say its patriotic and all sorts of ordinary people will turn into informers. C*nts.

	18-07-2002 18:42									#220
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: You are jumping to conclusions. Just because some yahoo volunteer calls in a TIP doesnt mean the "suspicious person" is going to be violated in any of these ways. In all likelihood 99 out of 100 tips would probably be screened out. To think the government has the resources to follow up on every tip is silly

-For now maybe, but if ever they started taking TIPS more seriously, and still didn't have the resources to investigate before seriously violating privacy rights...

	18-07-2002 18:48									#221
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Scared people panic.

More level headed times are ahead.
I am confident of that. I don't subscribe to the "America is going to fall apart" ideas.

I only come to this programs defense because everyone is only seeing the potential negatives. I'd rather try and see the positives.

If everyone looked at the citizencorps site a little closer, they would see that theres much more to it than "spying on people". Theres programs that are being set up to help educate normal citizens as to what they should do in cases of emergencies, to help local authorities out and help provide assistance to people in medical need.

Those ideas must surely be idiocy as well since Bush supports them too.

	18-07-2002 18:59									#222
	Inflate your Upload Space

Drake,

nice side-step! would any of these measures have got through 12 months ago??

to me the potential negatives far outweigh the potential benefits

	18-07-2002 19:01									#223
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Would they have? No, probably not.

Though I fail to see how the average American will be affected by laws that target .000000000000001 percent of the population.

	18-07-2002 19:03									#224
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Out of curiosity, are any of the Englishmen in this thread that are opposed to the Patriot act, etc. that have come out of the US Congress also opposed the the Prevention of Terrorism Act of 1974,1976 and other similar legislation that has come out of Parliament?

	18-07-2002 19:10									#225
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

all i was say was that the USA has fundamentally changed as a result of 9/11, you denied it had. I think the fact that laws are being passed that affect it citizens that would have got passed previously is a good indication of that change.

BTW that percentage of the American population is 000000028 of a person, edit some noughts out;O)

Last edited by reds4ever on 18-07-2002 at 19:16

	18-07-2002 19:13									#226
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

i haven't looked at either Act closely, but just calling the Patriot Act, smells fishy to me, it implies if you don't support it, youre unpatriotic.

	18-07-2002 19:15									#227
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Are people still living the lives they lead in almost identical fashion? Or did we wake up one morning and see our whole world had changed?

I'm talking about real, seeable differences, not just a slight (yes slight), change in mentality.

(My numbers were naturally exaggerrated, though you get the point. We're talking a miniscule change in the big picture)

	18-07-2002 19:18									#228
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by reds4ever i haven't looked at either Act closely, but just calling the Patriot Act, smells fishy to me, it implies if you don't support it, youre unpatriotic.

Would you rather they have just called it the Prevention of Terrorism Act as thier UK counterparts called thier version of almost the same legislation?

	18-07-2002 19:20									#229
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Scared people panic.

-This is a panic response or a deliberate attempt to subvert the American republic.

quote: More level headed times are ahead.

-As soon as we get rid of Bush and his cronies, yes.

quote: I only come to this programs defense because everyone is only seeing the potential negatives. I'd rather try and see the positives.

-With negatives such as these, the positives can not possibly justify it.

If everyone looked at the citizencorps site a little closer, they would see that theres much more to it than "spying on people". Theres programs that are being set up to help educate normal citizens as to what they should do in cases of emergencies, to help local authorities out and help provide assistance to people in medical need.

Those ideas must surely be idiocy as well since Bush supports them too.

quote: Those ideas must surely be idiocy as well since Bush supports them too.

-Exactly.

	18-07-2002 19:22									#230
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

'Slight', you wouldn't say that if you worked in the aircraft industry! i have 5 friends how used to work maintaining aircraft in the US. 2 of them now build cars, one builds trailers and 2 scrape around europe looking for aircraft work, here and there.

	18-07-2002 19:25									#231
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Would you rather they have just called it the Prevention of Terrorism Act as thier UK counterparts called thier version of almost the same legislation?

they can call it what they want, but i beleive it was called the Patriot Act to help smooth its way through, don't you?

	18-07-2002 19:27									#232
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

They could have called it the Snoggo Act and it still would have passed just as quickly given the politcal pressure to be seen as "doing something."

	18-07-2002 19:31									#233
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

So Bush is the root to all of Americas problems, is what you're saying basically Victor?

You can play what ifs all day and night, though I don't believe any other president would have handled this situation that much differently than Bush. Would have Clinton? Bush Sr? Reagan? Carter? Ford? JFK? Washington? Jefferson? Who?

You act as though theres such thing as a "perfect" president who can please everyone and get a 100% approval rating. It's not going to happen. Ever.

Oh, but president bashing is so fun and easy isn't it? You don't have to actually think about why things are certain ways, you just simple blame Bush! Sounds good to me.

	18-07-2002 19:31									#234
	Got spare money?

Dino,maybe, maybe not, we'll just have to disagree on that.

IMO the fact remains that it was called the Patriot Act, to squash any dissent as unpatriotic

	18-07-2002 19:32									#235
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

see, i think this is all very funny. we have people on one side who are terrified that america's time as the greatest country in the world will end because of this (wrong-- it'll end for some other stupid/silly reason in the future), and those who seem to have no problem with this, because they have faith that such things won't be abused, and that security is important (too much faith in their fellow man, if you ask me).

let's step back from this now, just for a moment. i want to know some things about this TIPS program; and i want us to lay out a groundwork for debate.

1. what will we define as "suspcious behaviour"? some of us are arguing that this isn't an infringement on rights because all the program is planning to do is have people keep their eyes and ears open for "suspicious behaviour".
what qualifies as suspicious behavior? is it being a bad american and having a japanese car in your garage? is it a letter from your father who lives and works in saudi arabia? maybe receiving a package/mail-order bride from russia? or, loading up a lot of boxes into your truck that at a university lab? or maybe just not flying the flag on four july?
what's "suspicious behaviour"? if we know what exactly it is that's suspcious, and what the government is sees as "suspicious", we'd be more able form a debate around that, and decide whether or not the government is as evil as it might seem.

2. what manner will this TIPS system be implemented? according to ashcroft (pity he went to uchicago... give all the rest of us good uchicago grads a bad name~), TIPS will not grant its informants access to private homes and what not. but if citizens are to be involved in scoping out "suspicious behaviour", how will they go about doing so? without entering homes, it'd probably be rather difficult to know what the private individual is doing-- no terrorist, no matter how brazen his plan, is going to make his preparations on his front lawn. is it going to involve phone taps? video surveillance? mail filtering? how is TIPS planning on circumventing court decisions on such matters? and how are they going to find trustworthy people to actually put this stuff into this vast database they want to set up? there are already problems with things like "married credit reports", in which two people with similar names/social security numbers have their credit ruined because the two different people have the same credit file-- would this be a potential issue in this new electronic database (is there any other kind these days?)?

see, honestly, this debate right now sounds like two different groups of people arguing over something they both don't know much about...

let's try to hammer out those things before we go onto whether TIPS is evil or not.

	18-07-2002 19:33									#236
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Reds, people get laid off for all sorts of reasons. Downsizing has been in effect a long time before anything like this happened. It's just a different industry thats being effected.

These guys are still employed. They're obviously not that bad off.

	18-07-2002 19:36									#237
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Drake, they are contract workers, they were laid off 9/13, direct cause and effect.

These are skilled guys they don't want to work in car factories etc but there are still no aircfaft jobs nearly a year later, and as for being not that badly off, do you know what a contract aircraft fitter can earn in a year???

	18-07-2002 19:40									#238
	Got spare money?

i just called one, he recons, $65-75 grand a year for a 50 hour week, and because there all registered as limited companies they get all sorts a tax breaks

	18-07-2002 19:41									#239
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

reds4ever: Are your friends unable to find work from a defense contractor? I would have thought that they at least would be hiring people to work on and build aircraft.

	18-07-2002 19:43									#240
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Well, cubed, though you're certainly right about both sides not knowing exactly what they're talking about, I'd offer that suspicious most likely means "different".

The people they are recruiting have jobs that follow the same routine day to day. After awhile, these people are able to pick up on when things are out of place or different, much better than the normal person.

Though as I concede, I'm not actually sure. None of us are.

Just another pointless poly discussion