18-07-2002 19:43									#241
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quote: So Bush is the root to all of Americas problems, is what you're saying basically Victor?

-Not all of them, but America would be better off without him.

quote: You act as though theres such thing as a "perfect" president who can please everyone and get a 100% approval rating. It's not going to happen. Ever.

-So, just because I can't justify that another man would have done a better job, I shouldn't complain about the shitty job this one is doing?

quote: Oh, but president bashing is so fun and easy isn't it? You don't have to actually think about why things are certain ways, you just simple blame Bush! Sounds good to me.

-The man is a criminal and an idiot placed in power by an obsolete archaic system.

	18-07-2002 19:47									#242
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quote: Well, cubed, though you're certainly right about both sides not knowing exactly what they're talking about, I'd offer that suspicious most likely means "different".

-Umm... I would say that this immediately labels me as suspicious.

	18-07-2002 19:47									#243
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Reds, you know how hard it is to find tech jobs in certain markets these days?...after the dotcom boom bellied up, a lot of skilled people lost their jobs and have had to adapt to get new jobs. Thats the way it goes. Things change, and will continue to change, terrorist attacks or not.

Don't blame the 911 event for the plane industry slumping, blame it on the paranoid public.

	18-07-2002 19:49									#244
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The man is a criminal and an idiot placed in power by an obsolete archaic system.

That obsolete archaic system being democracy? Or are you referring to something else

	18-07-2002 19:50									#245
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 I don't think the government will recruit everyone that signs up for this program. I'm sure that they will carefully screen applicants to ensure that they can be trusted.

	18-07-2002 19:52									#246
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Well... would the public have been paranoid if 911 hadn't happened? No. Am I paranoid? No, I flew to California as planned later that year.

	18-07-2002 19:53									#247
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quote: That obsolete archaic system being democracy? Or are you referring to something else

-The electoral college.

	18-07-2002 19:57									#248
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I just talked to a woman yesterday who had an ex-boss lie to the police about her and claim she was selling crack out of her house using the annoymous tip program.

She let the police in and wander through her house looking for evidence. Apparently they were nice to her and didn't trash the place.

Still, the potential for abuse is there. With American citizens now being declared enemy combatants and shanghai'd off to a military brig without Constitutional protections like habeus corpus, the right to have an attorny present while being questioned, etc. how can you believe for a second this isn't a problem. Especially after we're seeing more and more the government is grasping at event the most tenuous evidence to grab some people (like foreigners). The evidence against Padilla seems especially thin at this point.

	18-07-2002 19:59									#249
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I diasagree fundamentally with the electoral college as well, though it can certainly not be blamed solely for bushs election. A **** load of people still voted for him and he would have been extremely close in the popular vote.

But thats another thread.

	18-07-2002 20:01									#250
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quote: I diasagree fundamentally with the electoral college as well, though it can certainly not be blamed solely for bushs election. A **** load of people still voted for him and he would have been extremely close in the popular vote. But thats another thread.

-Quite true, but even more people voted for Gore.

	18-07-2002 20:07									#251
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Here's the problem. These are all small, incremental steps. Drake is saying, why are you worrying. This is a small thing. .1 on a 10 point scale. And he's right.

But .1 + .1 + .5 +. 1 +.2 = 1, and suddenly we're rather a bit closer to that place we don't want to be. Ad each step of the way, there will be someone like Drake, saying, yes, but this is just a small thing. But many small things make a big thing, and we're getting more and more small things.

	18-07-2002 20:11									#252
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So besides complaining about it on a board that has no bearing on anything, what are you doing to stop it Che? It's one thing to be opposed to something, but quite another to actually do something.

Democracy is about power to the people right? Well then why are you so afraid of doing just that? Giving power to the people???

Thats what we're talking about right? Empowering John Q Citizen to make a difference in the fight of terrorism right?

You don't trust the elected officials, you don't trust the people.....who do you guys trust?

	18-07-2002 20:21									#253
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quote: Democracy is about power to the people right? Well then why are you so afraid of doing just that? Giving power to the people??? Thats what we're talking about right? Empowering John Q Citizen to make a difference in the fight of terrorism right?

-Who said democracy was good?

	18-07-2002 20:31									#254
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quote: Originally posted by drake you don't trust the people

Who says I don't trust the people?

	18-07-2002 20:32									#255
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You don't trust the elected officials, you don't trust the people.....who do you guys trust?

How about this?

	18-07-2002 20:33									#256
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Che, you obviously don't trust the people because you expect this program to be corrupted. Your expectations from the people that will participate in this program are extrememly low.

You expect failure before even giving any of these people a chance.

	18-07-2002 20:41									#257
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Why should we trust people who are willing to spy on their neighbours?

	18-07-2002 20:42									#258
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We have already seen that the current system of citizen tips to police is abused. We have seen the the government has abused the Constitutional Rights of citizens and residents on the flimsiest of evidence. Why can't you seem to put the two of those problems together?

I'm expecting failure based on existing corruption and abuse of the system. I see no reason to expect that magically this will be different. Give me a reason to believe that despite existing abuse and corruption, this won't further erode our rights. Why will this be different?

	18-07-2002 20:49									#259
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So the people can't be trusted now to provide legitimate information, so why would they be trusted to do it ever is basically what youre saying che? Didnt you just say you trusted the people?

For every 100 tips, if 1 criminal is caught isn't it worth it? Isn't your friends 5 minutes of inconvenience worth capturing someone that is potentially dangerous? No one was hurt. She was cleared. End of story.

As someone with nothing to hide, I wouldnt feel at all bothered by someone asking to take a look around my place. Christ its just stuff we're talking about here. A few minutes of my discomfort is a sacrifice I'm ok with. You're not. Thats fine.

Victor, keeping ones eyes open for suspicious activity does not = looking through binoculars 24/7 spying on your neighbors.

	18-07-2002 20:55									#260
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So instead of answering my question you're flinging red herrings and ad hominums. Good rebuttal. In other words, you can't say why the new system won't be abused any more than the system that already exists.

	18-07-2002 21:03									#261
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for ever 100 tips, 99 are wrong;
say that these people are detained. in camp bravo at guantanamo bay.

yay, we caught 1 terrorist-- the 99 others remain, languishing, not being prosecuted or investigated by the government, being refused civil defense, and not being able to go home.

that's actually kinda happening now.

	18-07-2002 21:03									#262
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I wonder if being a member of Apolyton is "suspicious activity?"

	18-07-2002 21:06									#263
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Red herrings, ad hominems.....

Yes, it will have problems, yes there will be people who act irresponsibly and yes some people will be treated un-fairly. It may not improve on the current system.

Despite potential inaccuracies and corruption, good things can still in fact come from these exisiting programs. And therefore, perfect system or not, it can still be effective.

Like police officers. Many a corrupt police officer in this country, but the police still serve a valuable function.

Theres not going to be a perfect fix to anything. Someones always going to be unhappy. I just happen to think that the sacrifices that may be made are worth it.

	18-07-2002 21:11									#264
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Cubed, POWs are relevant to this in what way? Thats another issue. Call those guys what you want, they're not terrorists, they're foot soldiers.

	18-07-2002 21:15									#265
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quote: For every 100 tips, if 1 criminal is caught isn't it worth it? Isn't your friends 5 minutes of inconvenience worth capturing someone that is potentially dangerous? No one was hurt. She was cleared. End of story.

-What of the 99 wrongly accused?

quote: As someone with nothing to hide, I wouldnt feel at all bothered by someone asking to take a look around my place. Christ its just stuff we're talking about here. A few minutes of my discomfort is a sacrifice I'm ok with. You're not. Thats fine.

-You may not think you have something to hide, but realize that a paranoid enough person could still accuse you falsely of crimes you didn't commit.

quote: Victor, keeping ones eyes open for suspicious activity does not = looking through binoculars 24/7 spying on your neighbors.

-So then why start the program. We can just keep our eyes open without the encouragement to actively spy.

	18-07-2002 21:17									#266
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quote: So then why start the program. We can just keep our eyes open without the encouragement to actively spy.

I agree....though this is little more than just that with an 800 number.

	18-07-2002 21:22									#267
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drake, the problem is, those people at guantanamo--
they're not POWs!

scandala! see, the thing is, if they were designated POWs, they'd get the geneva convention protection. that's not happening; if they were considered terrorists being investigated into, they would be allowed civil protection.

they're stuck in this limbo, and that's what i'm afraid might just happen if this whole informant thing is taken way too far.

	18-07-2002 21:30									#268
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cubed, i understand that they arent being given that designation, but that is in fact what they are. Thats really another debate isn't it.

We're arguning about the way information is obtained by the government, not necessarily the way the information is used to punish someone. Or have we gone down that path?

I don't know. I think what the original discussion was, was lost awhile ago

	18-07-2002 21:44									#269
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quote: Originally posted by Victor Galis Yeah, CCTV cameras in public places don't violate the privacy of homes, and they deterr criminals by allowing law enforcement to catch them after the fact. This would try to catch people before they did anything!

You're overexagerrating!

	18-07-2002 21:59									#270
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quote: I agree....though this is little more than just that with an 800 number.

-That's not what the site makes this sound like. If I am indeed exaggerating the problem, it's bad PR on their part.