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Bereta_Eder
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quote:
Originally posted by Chris 62
The Limeys will never do it, if they do, then Europe's musems will be wide open to millions of claims for all the stuff they looted over the centuries. |
And yet, this noble quest attracts more and more supporters.
quote:
US Resolutions For The Return Of The Parthenon Marbles (7/16/02)
Two resolutions tabled recently in the US Senate and the US House of Representatives call on the British government to enter negotiations with Greece as soon as possible to facilitate the return of the Parthenon Marbles before the 2004 Athens Olympic Games.
In the two resolutions, the Parthenon is characterized as the leading expression of the ancient Greek art and the main symbol of the Greek cultural heritage, copies of which can be found in many public buildings, including the Lincoln Memorial.
In the resolutions, the Parthenon is characterized as an ecumenical symbol of civilization, democracy and freedom making the return of the Parthenon Marbles an issue that concerns the whole world and not only Greece. |
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Bereta_Eder
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Quite the opposite, if you care to see the facts. Half of the marbles which you stolen have been damaged by you twice. The other half that remain in their rightfull place are unblemished.
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Bereta_Eder
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and to be fair...
quote:
In April 1996, a program on Britain's Channel 4 asked viewers whether the Parthenon Marbles should be returned. Of 99,340 people who took part in the poll, 92.5 percent voted in favor of the proposal. |
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Starchild
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a raving alcoholic drama queen with a penchant for the biosciences
Jan 1970
time: 00:20
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You managed to miss the point of my post completely Pak  I know the UK-US "relationship" is a one sided affair with overtones of S/M. I've noted how the UK's support has been rewarded with steel tariffs, farm protection, and having our opinion on the World Court brushed aside.
Take the marbles, keep the marbles, whatever. I don't know why the British Museum just doesn't make a damn copy of them and give the originals back to Greece. We've got 3D laser scanners, we've got precision equipment and there's tons of marble in the world. Hell, they do it for dinosaur bones, so why not cultural artifacts?
Barring that, we could imprint "Made in Greece" on the bottom of the Marbles. 
quote:
Daughter of Jove! In Britain's injured name,
A true-born Briton may the deed disclaim.
Frown not on England; England owns him not:
Athena, no! thy plunderer was a Scot. |
I'm only 1/16th Scottish, so don't blame me for the marbles. Take it up with the Scottish Parliament.
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Bereta_Eder
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Not to say that Britain should be particularly thankful to people like you, Shi, who openly advocate funding of the IRA.
You are VERY confused...
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Bereta_Eder
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And I wonder how much money you have given to the IRA... since you said you support it.
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Faeelin
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Tau Ceti
Oct 2001
time: 05:20
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Hmm. According to this boo k on the Ottomans, "the hellenic message was spread by the Greek merchant communities through the capitals of Western Europe and Russia... rich expatriates, especially in Russia, came foward with substantial contributions, while young men, not only fom Europe but from America, volunteered, often in defiance of their own governments, to fight for the Greek cause... The greek revolution was "a war got up by poets and stock-jobbers for the benefit of Russia."
At first, Paik, you're right then. There was no British intervention at this point but.
"Residh Pasha embarked on a long siege of Athens, whose acropolis, folllowing an aborted attempt by Lord Cochrane to relieve it, fell to the Turks oin June, 1827. This... seemed to signal the end of the War of Independence."
So we have a man with the name of a high british lord ( in addition to lord bryon) leading a greek military force.
However...
"But it was not the end. For the time had come at last, after six years of bloodshed, for the powers of Europe to intervene... The Russians had proved msot active in their pressure against the Turks. The Austrians... favoured th supression of the rebels [and] the British and French feared the consequences of a new Russo-Turkish war. French and British naval forces in the Mediterranean saw those of the Greeks as an insurance against piracy."
Okay, I'll sum up what happens next. The Russians and Brits agree that the Greeks deserve autonomy, but the Ottoman sultan refuses. Here's what happens (in the bay of Navarino)
"an Egyptian ship fired on an open boat carrying the delegates. The French flagship at once retaliated with rifle fire, and a major naval engagement sinveitably followed. In this Ibrahim's fleet was all but annihilated. I twas the worst naval disaster to befall the Empire since Lepanto.
....
"The English secured an undertaking from Mehmed Ali to withdraw Ibrahim's forces"
Then the Russians invade (surprise) and that war ends in 1830, and finally...
"When it came to Greece, from which the Turkish forces had now been withdrawn, the Sultan was obliged to accept the terms... of the Treaty of London... this meant the acceptance of a Greek state, no longer subject to his sovereignty but entirely independent."
So, we have:
British support, after the victory by the Ottomans seemed assured, for Greek self-recognition
The British navy smashing the Ottoman navy up, with the help of the French and Russians.
And the Treaty of London, which finally assured Greek independence. Although to bbe fair, Greece didn't get all it wanted, as the Europeans didn't want to see Russia strengthened by the empire's total collapse.
Edit: Information provided by The Ottoman Centuries: The Rise and Fall of the Turkish Empire, by Lord Kinross.
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Bereta_Eder
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You are just verifying everything I said.
BTW the battle of Navarino, in which the Russians were the ones who did most of the work apart from the Greek ships, totally crushed the turkish fleet.
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Bereta_Eder
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Plus there was a big Pro-Greek feeling in most of western Europe. France, Britain, even Russia and Germany and the US at that time.
There are many men of the arts which actually took arms together with the Greeks against the Turks. Men who died with Greeks in the battle for freedom.
But this doesnt change that real politik reigned supreme and philellinism didnt actually replaced the national interests of each of the big powers.
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Faeelin
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Tau Ceti
Oct 2001
time: 05:20
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quote:
Originally posted by paiktis22
Britain did not intervened untill Greeks had already declaired their intependence and the Turks were beaten. It was in Britain's best interest to support the Greeks against the Ottoman empire.
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I think we disproved that, didn't we? What with Athens in Ottoman hands, the Greeks were viewed by outside powers as over
quote:
Although at the beggining we indeed did fight them. Every revolution was automatically deemed as "devilish" after Napoleon. The same with the Greek revolution.
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Actually, the British had had supported from Europe since almost immediately after the end of the napoleonic wars. And, BTW, the revolution of Greece didn't really start until 1821.
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And Greece defeating Italy and forcing Germany to send myriads of troops permitted the Russians to catch the Nazis in the winter. Your point?
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The nazis were, correct, bogged down in mud in the february and even march of '42. Had they invaded Russia at that point, why would the outcome have been different in '41?
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Turkey didnt even fight.
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Only because they couldn't figure out which side to roll over for.
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Your betrayl of democracy in the most grottesque way in militarey regime Turkey says all about your dedication to freedom anyway.
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As opposed, to, say, severing diplomatic relations with nondemocracies?
Shall I point out the fact that European nations (France, for instance) have had dealing with Saddam in weapons since the sanctions?
I'm not going to, since that's not the point at hand.
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You're so anti-Greek it's actually amuzing to toy with you. |
Are modern greeks descended from ancient greeks? I thought modern ones were slavs.
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Bereta_Eder
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Faeelin, you thought wrong.
I'm sorry but these questions have been answered adequately in other threads.
As for your prior statements I direct you to the previous posts.
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Faeelin
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Tau Ceti
Oct 2001
time: 05:20
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No, you see, you're failing to listen to the fact that the western powers intervened after the ottoman general had taken Athens.
Yes, it was for realpolitik, but if you're saying that it was fait accompli when the rebel capital was in enemy hands, you're very, very, mistaken.
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Bereta_Eder
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quote:
Originally posted by Faeelin
The nazis were, correct, bogged down in mud in the february and even march of '42. Had they invaded Russia at that point, why would the outcome have been different in '41? |
The only one not answered is this.
It would have been different because the nazis would have had to fight the Russians in the harsh winter.
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Bereta_Eder
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quote:
Originally posted by Faeelin
No, you see, you're failing to listen to the fact that the western powers intervened after the ottoman general had taken Athens.
Yes, it was for realpolitik, but if you're saying that it was fait accompli when the rebel capital was in enemy hands, you're very, very, mistaken. |
I would like to see a link for that statement.
Waiting for that, following your reasoning, you are very wrong. With Greece in Greek hands, the "capital" would be conquered in no time, don't you think so?
You also failed to notice that the Greek capital at that time was nayplio in the Peloponese. Greeks were pushing upwards towards Central and Northern Greece.
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Bereta_Eder
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Also, about WW2, I think that no other "small" country fought as succesfully as Greece did against two big European countries. This is something that is taken for granted now, but it bears repeating.
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17-07-2002 19:54
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