17-07-2002 00:00									#1
	Official: Formation of an Emergency Court to resolve our current situation Put an end to popups!

This is an official proposal, that we form a small emergency court to make a ruling on the Presidential poll, and resolve our current dismal situation.

My friends, I have just spent 4 hours closely reviewing the Court thread, and trying to formulate an amendment that we could all vote upon and create some kind of body of Justice that could deal with our situation.

Unfortunately I realized there are just too many loose ends that need to be tied at this moment. More polling and debate must be endured before we are ready to install something as far reaching, and monumental as an Apolyton High Court.

Therefore, I have the idea that a small, temporary court, to deal with our election crisis may be in order.

Should we form an emergency court to review our Presidential election, and make a ruling on it?

This is an official poll, with a simple majority required to pass. Upon its close in 3 days it will initiate construction of a court should most be in favor of it.

Here is what you are voting for by voting yes:

This court will only have jurisdiction regarding the current Presidential Election, and no other elections. It will NOT be granted the right to pass Judicial Law relating to future elections.

It will obtain information from the administrators regarding details of the election. It will review these details CLOSELY, and assess facts such as what might have happened if non-members had not voted.

They will be required to make a ruling on this matter within one week from when this poll will end (July 26), and the court will be disbanded after this date.

Members

After careful consideration, I have decided these following members will serve us best in this court. Also, they could be voted on for approval after the court is formed.

Captain
jdjdjd
Godking

Powers

This court will posses the power to review all data available on this Presidential election, and institute final rulings based on that obtained information.

It will have the power to interpret the constitution as it relates to this matter, regarding the use of two simultaneous Presidents. Again, decisions made will only effect this election.

It will have the power to decide weather to remove non-member votes or not. And after the poll closes, come to a consensus over the winner.

It will have the responsibility to report its findings to the people, and most important, maintain neutrality throughout its investigation, and in its final decision.


By voting yes here, you agreeing to all of the above.

Last edited by Timeline on 17-07-2002 at 00:54

	17-07-2002 00:09									#2
	Increase Your PM Length

Sorry Timeline, but I have to disagree with you, and here is why :

- this problem is complex enough so that we don't tinker something in haste to solve it.
- after some debating (where everybody is accepted, not just 3 people), we'll know what good questions to ask.
- the people will answer these good questions through a poll.
- when people build something in haste, it's much more difficult getting rid of it than building it. We'll have a far-from-perfect judicial system which will last way too long.

Until this is done (a matter of 6-7 days max), we let Ninot and Trip do as they please. By this time, the true and debated judicial system should be up and running, if the people didn't answer the questions clearly.

In fewer words : your hasty proposition will bring more evil than good, that's why I disapprove you.

	17-07-2002 00:14									#3
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I agree with Spiff

THE PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN

	17-07-2002 00:22									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Righty-oh. I agree with what has been said.

I think Timeline is mad because he might have two people above him instead of just one....

	17-07-2002 00:23									#5
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Sorry Timeline, but I have to disagree with you, and here is why : - this problem is complex enough so that we don't tinker something in haste to solve it. - after some debating (where everybody is accepted, not just 3 people), we'll know what good questions to ask. - the people will answer these good questions through a poll. - when people build something in haste, it's much more difficult getting rid of it than building it. We'll have a far-from-perfect judicial system which will last way too long. Until this is done (a matter of 6-7 days max), we let Ninot and Trip do as they please. By this time, the true and debated judicial system should be up and running, if the people didn't answer the questions clearly. In fewer words : your hasty proposition will bring more evil than good, that's why I disapprove you.

As for things about getting rid of it, it will be disbanded automatically in 10 days, after a ruling has been made.

Perhaps it may bring about some possible problems, but we need people who are neutral and can look at the facts to decide what is going on here, imo.

This is kind of like a test run for our coming Apolyton court, and I think it's very much in order.

Trip and Ninot gave their suggestions over how to handle it. It seems the people disagree.

Now we need a "committee" as it were, to look at the facts and decide what to do.

This is just my opinion but I think alot of people would like to see a court formed to handle this situation.

	17-07-2002 00:26									#6
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by The Dark Lord Righty-oh. I agree with what has been said. I think Timeline is mad because he might have two people above him instead of just one....

lol Darklord, yea that would be a bummer

	17-07-2002 00:27									#7
	Support Apolyton

I'm kind of uncomfortable with giving one minister the authority to appoint three citizens who will, effectively, decide an election.

	17-07-2002 00:29									#8
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Robber Baron I'm kind of uncomfortable with giving one minister the authority to appoint three citizens who will, effectively, decide an election.

Who would you suggest?

And as far as I know, none of these ones have said much about their feelings on this matter....but I could be wrong, lemme check.

	17-07-2002 00:32									#9
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Robber Baron I'm kind of uncomfortable with giving one minister the authority to appoint three citizens who will, effectively, decide an election.

Ditto

It would be more prudent now to just poll the populace to resolve this conflict.

The fact of the matter is that we DO NOT have a remedy under the law to resolve this dispute, so our only course of action is to have a democratic agreement reached by the citizenry for now, and then put into place a Constitutional system to resolve future conflicts.

It is more Unconstitutional to have the VP choose three citizens to resolve this conflict than to have the masses resolve this conflict.

--Togas

	17-07-2002 00:36									#10
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Timeline Who would you suggest? And as far as I know, none of these ones have said much about their feelings on this matter....but I could be wrong, lemme check.

I had no particular problems with the citizens you suggested, and I respect you for stepping forward with a proposal for a solution.
It was more the principle of the precedent, and the way it structured things so that a decision would flow, essentially, from an individual person. (You, in this case, but again, my objection is not personal: nobody should have that kind of appointment authority.)

	17-07-2002 00:42									#11
	Tired of ads?

Way to try to short circuit a prepoll discussion thread Timeline.

	17-07-2002 00:44									#12
	Increase Your PM Length

Yes, I understand Robber Baron. I was only trying to do as Togos said: "The fact of the matter is that we DO NOT have a remedy under the law to resolve this dispute, so our only course of action is to have a democratic agreement reached by the citizenry for now."

Notice the poll at the top.

But it appears this idea has been shot down fairly quick. At least we know that we'll be facing this together, even itf it takes a bit longer.

I can see the benefits of everyone being involved, but I felt a court would be faster, and probably just as effective.

But anyway, thanks for the thoughts guys.

	17-07-2002 00:49									#13
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Way to try to short circuit a prepoll discussion thread Timeline.

yea, he is a jackass isnt he?

i vote to impeach!

	17-07-2002 00:50									#14
	Got spare money?

What did I ever do to you?

	17-07-2002 01:27									#15
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I think it is a good idea, but as my name is involved, I shall not vote. Thank you for the consideration.

I feel that there should only be one president. The compromise that trip & ninot proposed does not meet the intention of the constitution, althought there is no violation thereof. IMO, it is only an issue if the election ends in a tie. Else, per the constitution, the person with the most votes wins. End of issue. I don't think the poll closes until tomarrow, so let us wait and see.

In regards to the issue of non-citizens voting, that is something the court could (should?) look at for future elections. In this one I feel it is irrelevant at this time.

	17-07-2002 01:34									#16
	Got spare money?

AHHHHHHHHHH! THIS IS SO FRUSTRATING!

I've heard many good ideas and many poor ones all over the Democracy Game forum, but there is no concensus on what to do. The indecisiveness and seeming confusion of all this madness brings a picture to mind of a turtle on its back .

The supreme court fix seems to be generally accepted, but it will be some time before its up and running. To me a temporary court is an excellent idea, though its powers and such should be debated, and as it is I think it would just take too long - almost as long a the real court to be set up.

Trip is still the President until the end of the poll, is he not? I have been disapointed at his leadership in this time of crises.

The all around best solution to the problem is that the loser of the Presidential election, when the poll closes, step down and allow the winner to assume full and undisputed power.

Kman

EDIT: Gotta love Uber's avatar! My face lights up evertime i see it.

	17-07-2002 01:37									#17
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Trip already said he would do that graciously, if it went that far. Problem solved.

	17-07-2002 01:37									#18
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I'm sorry timeline but the only logical solution(if you don't like the copresidency) is a count based only on citizen votes and then you will have a winner without dispute.
Aggie

	17-07-2002 01:39									#19
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: In regards to the issue of non-citizens voting, that is something the court could (should?) look at for future elections. In this one I feel it is irrelevant at this time.

AGREED!!!!!

Everybody just agree to this and we're set. We'll make sure that in the future this will never happen again.

EDIT:

quote: Trip already said he would do that graciously, if it went that far. Problem solved.

Excellent!

	17-07-2002 02:04									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Despite being named as part of an emergency court, I must disagree with the concept. But thank you for your consideration Timeline.

All else aside, the overriding factor is that I think that creating a temporary court, and agreeing on which 3 members will be judges, and getting those 3 to agree, and then implementing their solution, which may be contested by many others,.... will be far more complex than simply repolling if it comes to that.

Considering the majority of the populace, at this time, is against the idea of 2 presidents, only one should be permitted (even though I think a Ninot-Trip team would be fine). The poll shows that most people do not want Trip and Ninot to share power and that should be respected. Further, while not expressedly forbidden, sharing a co-Pres may infringe on the office of the VP and therefore substantiate a charge against such sharing. (However, we do not yet have a Court so there is no present method of resolving such charges, or any contested issues at all. The only process we have so far is the use of polls, which may themselves be contested leading to validity polls about validity polls of validity polls of validity polls about the original poll... et cetera ad nauseum)

The Constitution does not say anything specific regarding what is required for victory in Elections, the closest thing we have in the Code of Laws is in the Poll Format section which says:

quote: Each official poll MUST include either a ‘yes/no’ format, or a ‘group’ format, where similar options are grouped together, where the winning option within the group with the most votes is the official winner. The only time these formats do not have to be followed is in true multiple-choice polls, i.e. ‘Which Civilization should we be: Egyptians, Persians. Etc.’ In these cases, a simple ‘yes/no’ or ‘grouping’ poll does not suffice.

Bold italics mine.

The bold section is the only place I found which refers to requirements for poll results - indicating most votes wins. The italic section is rather vague and I am not quite sure what it means. It could be taken to invalidate the bold section since an election poll is more similar to the polls described in italics, than a simple yes/no or grouping poll. But it is ambiguous.

Therefore, the Code of Laws is at best vague on the subject and at worst silent.


In order of personal preference, I suggest:

1) MarkG checks and we discount non-citizen votes. Determine who is the winner. (I am not sure of public support for the idea of discounting non-citizen votes, but I support it)

or

2) One of the two candidates concedes. The other becomes President.

or

3) Quick repoll. Elected VP takes Presidential role until a new President is determined.



In each of the above cases, the winner can appoint the loser to some special position if so desired as long as such a position does not infringe on the jurisdiction of existing offices. The Code of Laws is silent on this at present. New legislation/amendments could (and should IMHO) be passed in the future to regulate this.

	17-07-2002 02:12									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

These ideas sound excellent to me, and I think the first two out of the three are the most popular atm.

As a third option we can leave the poll alone from tampering, and accept the results.

Alot is being done by NYE also to uncover the people's will, so I will be watching to see what the general consences seems to be.

	17-07-2002 02:16									#22
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

1) Maybe if 2) doesn't happen.

2) Hopefully, this is the fastest, quickest, and easiest solution.

3) I hope not. This will take time and people may change their votes for various reasons from the first poll. I don't like this one and hope the other two happen.

Good analysis, Captain, Im sure this is how its gonna be

Kman

	17-07-2002 02:44									#23
	Get a bigger avatar today!

No. AS i've said before, I actually dont think it'll be tied when it ends, and ninot now has a 4-vote lead. If it is tied, the people should vote on these things not special judges anyways

	17-07-2002 02:47									#24
	Get a bigger avatar today!

My order is:
1. someone wins when it closes, they win.
2. remove non-citizens
3. concede

I think captains #3 is as undemocratic as it gets. Essentially, we check to see whether more ninot supporters or trip supporters are online and active within a short period of time not hw many there actually are

	17-07-2002 02:51									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

We need to discount non-citizen votes. The 4-vote lead probably has nothing to do with any citizen's votes, but rather the random voting of non-citizens.

	17-07-2002 03:18									#26
	Remove this text

Im abstaining on this until I see the vote results minus the non-signups that MarkG promised in the election thread. If the results of this election are shown not to be affected by unregistered voters then there is no need for this.

If on the other hand it is shown that they changed the outcome....we could consider this, but I think id lean against it. It seems like it'd be easier and just as constitutional to make a poll on wether votes from un-registered citizens should count or not.

	17-07-2002 05:20									#27
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

No poll. It's implied in the Constitution, and in fact by the very existence of the sign-up thread, that you need to sign up to vote.

	17-07-2002 05:31									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

After re-reading the constitution I dont think its implied or otherwise that voters have to have signed up. In fact its totally silent on who can vote for what.

The existance of the signup thread though does sort of imply that you should sign up to vote. In any case, I dont think a poll to clarify the issue would hurt, but I strongly suspect it'd be something like 75% of people voting would vote for only "signed up citizens" can vote, so it maybe semi-pointless. I just would just hate to assume that and be wrong. I do know that I would vote to restrict voting rights to members though, even if it would reverse the election against who I originally voted for

If we don't poll this time, then it should at least be expressely stated in our election reform ammendment who can and can't vote so that the people eventually get a say on the issue.

Im personally hoping that the poll I suggested is made unnessary because it didnt change the outcome of this election anyways though, and we can just deal with the whole deal through an ammendment during this term.

	17-07-2002 05:41									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Well, maybe not in the Constitution, but why do we have a sign-up thread if we don't need them to sign up?

	17-07-2002 06:59									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Heh, I agree that it is almost implied that people have to sign up to vote, but to me (being a strict constitutionalist) implied isn't enough to make it law Thats just me though. In any case as Trip conceded, and there's nothing currently in the laws to say he can't concede, that means the immediate situation is resolved. We just need to make it a priority to get an election ammendment writing this stuff out ratified.