19-07-2002 02:13									#31
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Hey Provost, how's it goin'?

You know, a while ago I thought your way of expressing your atheism a bit harsh, but after listening to the crackpots for long enough, I've come to the conclusion that your approach probably is the best. I want to distance myself from these utter imbecils as much as I can...

	19-07-2002 02:15									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 Silly evolutionists!

You sir give creationism a bad name

Physics has little or nothing to do with anything religous.

	19-07-2002 02:27									#33
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The best thing about Creationists is, is that they only try to discredit the oposing theories without present arguments for their own.

Average creationist logic: Evolution is wrong because of this, that and the other. Thus: Creationism is true.

I'm sure even Cloud can see the error in that reasoning.

	19-07-2002 02:31									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Well the creationists claim evolution is impossible because of the 2nd law of thermodynamics...

Oh sure, I've heard that load of drivel before. What confuses me here is that the original article posted is about how the 2nd law might be flawed. If ignorant creationists rely on the 2nd law in order to "disprove" evolution, then I can't see how disproving the 2nd law disproves evolution. If anything, all that this does is reduce the amount of "evidence" in favor of creationism. Most creationism arguments rely on ignorance, but Cloud9's relies on blatant contradiction.

	19-07-2002 04:12									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Jaakko Hey Provost, how's it goin'? You know, a while ago I thought your way of expressing your atheism a bit harsh, but after listening to the crackpots for long enough, I've come to the conclusion that your approach probably is the best. I want to distance myself from these utter imbecils as much as I can...

People can be right, yet their justification wrong.

People can be wrong but their justification appear valid.

The problem for many "correct" people is that they are tarnished with the same brush as the crackpots. Take each idea on its own, and not based on the person who presents it.

	19-07-2002 05:04									#36
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory You sir give creationism a bad name Physics has little or nothing to do with anything religous.

Well, sir, the "laws" of physics have been used to discredit creationism, and it's an insult to creationists.

	19-07-2002 05:09									#37
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You are insulted when the natural laws of the universe contradict your baseless beliefs?

I am insulted by physicists when flapping my arms really fast does not produce lift. I've seen it in cartoons! I wanna fly!

	19-07-2002 05:14									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Lorizael I am insulted by physicists when flapping my arms really fast does not produce lift. I've seen it in cartoons! I wanna fly!

One word: Looney.

	19-07-2002 05:57									#39
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Time for your ritalin cloud9

I am still dubious of this experiment though nonetheless. Of course I do not know the details, but could it be possible that work is being done on this system from outside?

Yeah, the 2nd law is generally well adhered to, but there is always something else weird. It doesn't mean much, just more information about the world around us, and certainly does not point to creationism being correct.

	19-07-2002 05:59									#40
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please, what is the "2nd law" and how does it concern the world we live in?

	19-07-2002 06:01									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 Just another fallacy that proves evolution is Science Fiction!

?

quote: The researchers discovered that in such a tiny system, entropy can sometimes decrease rather than increase

We already knew this. Entropy only is defined for statistically significant numbers of particles. Entropy can go down; wait long enough and you'll see a bucket of water freeze on a warm day.

	19-07-2002 06:01									#42
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You should know what the 2nd law of thermodynamics is Andy.

	19-07-2002 06:05									#43
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I don't know it out of my head, I'm sorry.

And then, I fail to see the connection between thermodynamics and things beyond the world we live in.

	19-07-2002 06:08									#44
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The entropy of a closed system increases over time. Alternatively, every refrigerator dumps more heat out than it sucks in.

	19-07-2002 06:11									#45
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the entropy increases over time... also without energy provided? or is that the whole point of it?

and now enlighten me about the news about that law. what does that mean, it has been broken?

	19-07-2002 06:13									#46
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Do you know what I just found? A Java applet that lets you play at being Maxwell's demon!

http://cougar.slvhs.slv.k12.ca.us/~...es/maxwell.html

	19-07-2002 06:14									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion the entropy increases over time... also without energy provided? or is that the whole point of it?

?

Entropy is a different concept than energy. The energy of a closed system must remain constant by definition.

	19-07-2002 06:15									#48
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory You sir give creationism a bad name Physics has little or nothing to do with anything religous.

Oh, Faded Glory, you are wise to distance yourself from those who attack what is testable in defence of something which is not. The domain for religion is purely within the ambiguous realm of spirituality, not the realm of the physical universe.

I haven't seen you post drunk, lately, FG. This could explain your apparent logic of late

	19-07-2002 06:15									#49
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yes, but usually something has to happen to change entropy. but true, it's unrelated to energy.

now, what's the point of this thread, I still don't quite get it... all that talk about creationists etc, where's the connection to entropy?

and before you ask, yes I know what entropy is

	19-07-2002 06:15									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion the entropy increases over time... also without energy provided? or is that the whole point of it? and now enlighten me about the news about that law. what does that mean, it has been broken?

Entropy can only be defined statistically. Look at a small enough system for a short enough period of time and its entropy can decrease over the alotted interval.

	19-07-2002 06:16									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion yes, but usually something has to happen to change entropy. but true, it's unrelated to energy. now, what's the point of this thread, I still don't quite get it... all that talk about creationists etc, where's the connection to entropy? and before you ask, yes I know what entropy is

Really? What is it?

	19-07-2002 06:18									#52
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I've never put it in English before though.

It's the state of chaos, so to speak. Does that suffice?

	19-07-2002 06:20									#53
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Maybe a bit more: I know that substances tend to increase in entropy, so that in chemical reactions the outcome of gases is more likely than that of liquids or solids, so that under certain circumstances (entropy difference of the reaciton in combination with temperature, energy/enthalpy difference of the reaciotn), a reaction is more or less likely to happen with the relevant changed in solid/liquid/gaseous state (gibbs thing)

that's just one, pretty trivial application

	19-07-2002 06:21									#54
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now stop testing me about this nonsense, better tell me how that is related to creationism

...until tomorrow that is

	19-07-2002 06:26									#55
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You shouldn't believe everything you read. "Order" and "chaos" are fuzzy terms. Better to restrict yourself to mathematical definitions...

	19-07-2002 06:26									#56
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Entropy is a natural tendency towards disorder. To reverse the effect of entropy, external energy is required. Therefore, in a closed system, making something more orderly requires other things to become more disordered, only more so.

Evolution relates to this as creationists argue that evolution defies entropy, conveniently ignoring the fact that the energy from the sun enables the earth to become more ordered. As Earth has an external source, it doesn't violate this law.

The experiments are very interesting, but only time will tell if it has in fact broken the law.

	19-07-2002 06:30									#57
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The law isn't broken if the system they're looking at is too small to apply stat mech to.

	19-07-2002 06:41									#58
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I've only now just read the article, and it's very interesting. It reminded me of something i read about, that at the quantum level, particles can be considered to be "non-local". Enourmous masses of particles, like, say, humans, collectively are local. One cannot be in two places at once! At the quantum level, however, particles effectively can be.

Is there a connection here? There certainly seems to be a different set of rules at the micro level than at the macro level.

	19-07-2002 10:46									#59
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Lung basically said the same as I did. You just don't want to admit there's something I know, KH.

	19-07-2002 11:04									#60
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Wait......i'm agreeing with you? How?