19-07-2002 11:39									#61
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By defining entropy as a tendency towards disorder. That's what I said.

	19-07-2002 17:30									#62
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Entropy is not a tendency. It does however have a tendency.

	19-07-2002 18:03									#63
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well, it's a measurement for said tendency

	19-07-2002 18:18									#64
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As someone already said, it is only a law on a statistical level.

If you imagine a system of particles in a box, all lined up in nice orderly lines, and think of all the ways they can move around, the majority of the possibilities are more disordered than that the initial condition. The statement that entropy always increases is therfore just saying that the number of disordered states available to a system is substanially more than the number of ordered ones. So statistically disorder will increase.

However, it is entirely possible that a box full of randomly orientated particles would rearrange themselves to spell out "Fuc k the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics". Just not very likely....

	19-07-2002 19:26									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion Lung basically said the same as I did. You just don't want to admit there's something I know, KH.

You're both wrong.

	19-07-2002 19:27									#66
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quote: If you imagine a system of particles in a box, all lined up in nice orderly lines, and think of all the ways they can move around, the majority of the possibilities are more disordered than that the initial condition

Exactly. It's all a matter of the number of possible microstates increasing over time....

	19-07-2002 19:28									#67
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That's what my chemistry (shut up ) teacher told me.

You, being some elitist geeky physicist probably know an even more divine and quantum-based definition. Why don't you just say "yes, my kids, your school knowledge is *nihihi* alright, now go and eat these chocolates". that'd be mature and adult.

but instead you tease us and in the end say something like "you wouldn't understand it anyway"

so what is it, smartarse?

	19-07-2002 19:29									#68
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And Ecthelion, the reason I'm being such an ass about using the term "order" is that it sometimes gives wrong answers. Stick to the mathematical definitions and you won't go wrong.

	19-07-2002 19:31									#69
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I don't know the mathematical definition. So it's Rogan Josh style smartarsery. Blah blah statistics blah blah more likely to happen blah blah ... btw,m eh also used the term order, and he was pretty close to a max exact as possible for human beings answer...

so how would you define it?

	19-07-2002 19:32									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion That's what my chemistry (shut up ) teacher told me. You, being some elitist geeky physicist probably know an even more divine and quantum-based definition. Why don't you just say "yes, my kids, your school knowledge is *nihihi* alright, now go and eat these chocolates". that'd be mature and adult. but instead you tease us and in the end say something like "you wouldn't understand it anyway" so what is it, smartarse?

This is important, Ecthelion. Everybody always gets introduced to entropy by being told that it's a measure of disorder. This leads to creationist nuts claiming that evolution violates the second law, when in actuality it does no such thing. You can define entropy in terms of information, but you have to be very careful when you do it; it's not at all obvious, for instance, that a human being is more ordered than an equivalent mass of algae...

	19-07-2002 19:33									#71
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Bah, you were a lot asier to deal with when you still had that kitten avatar. No matter what a pr!ck you were being, it was always nice and cute. Now you're just an arrogant frog. Can't help it

	19-07-2002 19:36									#72
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You can either define entropy as a process-related differential (dS=dQ/T) or statistically (S=k*lnP). There are in addition some other, equivalent, definitions.

	19-07-2002 19:37									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion So it's Rogan Josh style smartarsery.

Excuse me?

What did I say that was remotely 'smartarsery'? I was trying to be helpful, and explain something in a way which was reasonably easy to understand.

I see you don't appreciate that.

	19-07-2002 20:31									#74
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lol, don't worry... you're fine

and yes, it was correct and understandale at a time, better than KH's "wrong", "still wrong", "not exact" behaviour... I just found it annoying how I could do whatever I would without being recognised as halfway knowing by him..

and KH, now that you gave that definition I realise I'm not knowing at all

S = (dH-dG)/T

	21-07-2002 23:48									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Do you know what I just found? A Java applet that lets you play at being Maxwell's demon! http://cougar.slvhs.slv.k12.ca.us/~...es/maxwell.html

Sunday afternoons are so boring. I got all but one across. That last one was a real bugger.